Frans future

[hawkeyebob62]

Fair question.

Maybe he's an average recruiter? Iowa does have some pretty decent players. But as many have mentioned, they're not athletic players.

Also could it be he's a very good offensive coach and a very bad defensive coach? Would they kind of cancel each other out and put you in the average results range?

I always picture the idea that Fran wants a "running" team, and can't or won't coach anything else. He then compounds that with the notion that he should only prepare his teams as if they are only playing other running teams. Just very odd, in my mind.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Interesting. Who would be on that list now. Big hype, relatively disappointing career. In my era of fandom, 1977-present, I would have to go with Al Lorenzen and Kenyon Murray.

Lorenzen had back issues. Kenyon Murray was nowhere near "bust" (nor was Al Lorenzen, actually).

Nope, that one would HAVE to go to...nah, I won't rank on a guy, especially years after he has left U of I...

 

[hawkeyebob62]

If Cook stays and can't make the NBA early or at all, then Fran's recruiting reputation is cinders. Every coach that we go against will mention to a prospective recruit that Fran couldn't develop a guy like Cook. That's not a good look.

Yeah, cuz so many future recruits know who TC is and what the expectations for him were coming in

 

[HawkGold]

I’m willing to bet that before actually joining the Hawkeyes, they probably had very little coaching from their dad.

Whether he’s a good coach or not, Fran is a Big Ten HC and the amount of free time he has is probably zip. I just don’t see him having 8-10 hours a week alone with his kids for basketball, which is what it’d probably take. He probably spends 60 hrs a week at Carver, and then add recruiting, travel, and fundraising on top of it.

The Connor and Patrick we see is a result of AAU and camp coaching.

But, if you break things down, Iowa is mediocre on fundamentals, especially on D with hand and feet..

Year round, I dont believe he doesnt have any time. You honestly think in jr hi or hs no one could help? He's got CM now in practice.

He couldnt have noticed and paid someone to teachvfundamentals?

 

[Northside Hawk]

Lorenzen had back issues. Kenyon Murray was nowhere near "bust" (nor was Al Lorenzen, actually).

Nope, that one would HAVE to go to...nah, I won't rank on a guy, especially years after he has left U of I...

Those were both reaches. It's a tricky criteria, hype vs performance, because most of the ballyhooed recruits we did get ended up being solid players.

Lorenzen did have a lot of national hype, however. He made some national top ten lists back in a day when player ratings were nowhere near as sophisticated as today. AAU was just getting started then. What you did have was Howard Garfinkel's five star camp. Garfinkel, who's word was gold for decades, called Lorenzen the best rebounder in his camp and best power forward in the nation. His back did end up slowing him down, however, and he may have been the one player in that era who never quite got the hang of Davis' system.

I did a fascinating study on Kenyon Murray last summer, comparing him to Kevin Boyle. Their stats, and linear career paths at Iowa, are eerily similiar. But Murray, a Michigan native, was hyped as the "next Marble" and he never came close to that, especially on offense. In retrospect James Moses ended up having a better career at Iowa than Murray did.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Antonio Ramos

Antonio Ramos!

After he crashed and burned at Iowa, he ended up transferring to Clarke College in Dubuque, which back then was still getting their basketball program in gear. The most impressive thing he may have done was put the star on the Christmas tree for a cable TV commercial I produced in 2000 or 2001. What was impressive was that at 7'2 he didn't need a stepladder.

 

[lightning1]

If Nunge happens to be the real deal I think we can absorb losing Cook. So I guess that puts a huge deal of pressure on Nunge if Cook goes. Moss is probably average at best, but right now average at best is about what we have in the backcourt.

As far as recruiting and the state of the program, the 2020 class is huge for Fran. Obviously an instate 5* in XF is priority number one, but Fran is also in on a handful of 4* level talent. The problem is we’ve been in on those types of kids before and came up short most times. I do think Joe T is a step in the right direction, and should be able to provide some things we’ve been missing.

??? We saw Nunge last year. How much "real deal" can any player get over 1 year with Fran? I think you bumped your head.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Those were both reaches. It's a tricky criteria, hype vs performance, because most of the ballyhooed recruits we did get ended up being solid players.

Lorenzen did have a lot of national hype, however. He made some national top ten lists back in a day when player ratings were nowhere near as sophisticated as today. AAU was just getting started then. What you did have was Howard Garfinkel's five star camp. Garfinkel, who's word was gold for decades, called Lorenzen the best rebounder in his camp and best power forward in the nation. His back did end up slowing him down, however, and he may have been the one player in that era who never quite got the hang of Davis' system.

I did a fascinating study on Kenyon Murray last summer, comparing him to Kevin Boyle. Their stats, and linear career paths at Iowa, are eerily similiar. But Murray, a Michigan native, was hyped as the "next Marble" and he never came close to that, especially on offense. In retrospect James Moses ended up having a better career at Iowa than Murray did.

And James Moses is considered, by some, to be a "bust".

 

[Northside Hawk]

And James Moses is considered, by some, to be a "bust".

Moses had a slow release, which hurt the outside shooting at the Div. 1 level that he was famous for in high school. But by his senior year, he became a better offensive threat by taking it to the hoop. He had an absolute monster game against Texas in the 1992 NCAA'S, something like 22 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists. Something in that ballpark.

He scored 1,343 career points at Iowa, currently 19th all time, and is probably lurking just outside the top ten in steals. He also had a famous game winning tip in at Indiana. Not bad for a perceived "bust".

 

[PCHawk]

??? We saw Nunge last year. How much "real deal" can any player get over 1 year with Fran? I think you bumped your head.

Marble, White, Uthoff, and Jok got quite a bit out of one year. Some do, some don't. Just like every other program. How much a player improves is mostly due to how far away he is from his ceiling and how much individual work he puts in. Obviously what a coach tells him to work on matters some, but it's not near as important as the other 2 things I mentioned.

 

[lightning1]

Interesting. Who would be on that list now. Big hype, relatively disappointing career. In my era of fandom, 1977-present, I would have to go with Al Lorenzen and Kenyon Murray.

Troy Skinner?

 

[mopkins]

Pat McCaffery will be the biggest recruiting bust relative to the amount of hype in the history of Iowa basketball. You heard it here.

I’ll go so far as to say he won’t play 2 full years in P5 basketball. Not his fault, but it won’t happen.

If we could get his amount of passion in a guy like Cook you’d be looking at an All American, but Patrick isn’t a Big Ten basketball player, period.

I think Patrick is gonna start out really really slow...hopefully a redshirt but I doubt Fran will do that. Maybe by his junior year he'll be decent.

That's my ceiling for him. Decent.

 

[lightning1]

[We are in dance, shut your pie hole......dudes like you ran out guys like Tom Davis, Lute Olson, and Steve Alford. Steve was a douche but TD and Lute were Legends


QUOTE="revkev73, post: 1830305, member: 81504"]Wisconsin recruits and plays to excel with the "officiating" of the conference. Iowa, glued in, immovable in the FB and BB programs. Fran will be around a long, long time, he is average, the perfect fit for Iowa.

[/QUOTE]
You don't have a clue what you are talking about. Thought you should know.

 

[PCHawk]

Troy Skinner?

Glen Worley?

 

[lightning1]

I’m willing to bet that before actually joining the Hawkeyes, they probably had very little coaching from their dad.

Whether he’s a good coach or not, Fran is a Big Ten HC and the amount of free time he has is probably zip. I just don’t see him having 8-10 hours a week alone with his kids for basketball, which is what it’d probably take. He probably spends 60 hrs a week at Carver, and then add recruiting, travel, and fundraising on top of it.

The Connor and Patrick we see is a result of AAU and camp coaching.

You're mistaken. 99% of the coach's kids that play in college have very good fundamentals. Especially shooting the basketball. Even Lil' Lick had a jump shot for goodness sakes!

 

[Northside Hawk]

Troy Skinner?

Prolific small school scoring legend. Was he nationally all that well known? Do you remember if he tore up summer camps and AAU leagues?

I'm trying to remember if he had a lot of hype coming in, and what his national rankings were. He did end up disappointing as a scorer, which didn't bode well because you knew he was going to give away huge advantages as a ball handler and defender.

He would have been a monster in the Iowa Conference. I bet you played against him at some point.

 

[HuckFinn]

Few on here want to discuss the problem that both of the M boys have terrible shooting fundamentals and PM has absolutely terrible dribbling fundamentals, which wouldn't be as big of an issue if he didn't do it so much.

Where I'm going on this is that they had a least a driveway hoop to be coached by a Big Coach. What happened? They didn't listen? He can't coach fundamentals at the player level? Privilege? Maybe explains why players seem to digress? Fundamentals need to be drilled over and over. Maybe teams catch up to what players are doing as they age and it doesn't work anymore?

Do you know how silly it sounds when you say that a team of 3 division 1 coaches cannot teach division 1 scholarship athletes “fundamentals.” Really?

 

[HawkGold]

Do you know how silly it sounds when you say that a team of 3 division 1 coaches cannot teach division 1 scholarship athletes “fundamentals.” Really?

If youve coached do you know how silly it looks when its easy to ID.

Go back and look at the UM game video and pics. The lack of D fundamentals make Iowa look slower.

If you cant see C and P s shooting and body poisition flaws...

Compare to UM s. You sound like a silly fan.

Brad Underwood has similar issues IL is more about spacing than Iowa though. They didnt exploit Iowa due to spacing or lack of it.

 

[lightning1]

Prolific small school scoring legend. Was he nationally all that well known? Do you remember if he tore up summer camps and AAU leagues?

I'm trying to remember if he had a lot of hype coming in, and what his national rankings were. He did end up disappointing as a scorer, which didn't bode well because you knew he was going to give away huge advantages as a ball handler and defender.

He would have been a monster in the Iowa Conference. I bet you played against him at some point.

I remember the local hype. Troy Skinner was when I knew it was all down hill for Tom Davis. After having seen BJ, Roy, Gamble, Ronnie, etc and then watching Davis roll out Troy Skinner.....I knew where the program was headed. I played against Skinner 1 time at the Field House. He could have had his off hand amputated and it wouldn't have hurt his game. He chucked 3s the entire game.

 

[Fryowa]

I think Patrick is gonna start out really really slow...hopefully a redshirt but I doubt Fran will do that. Maybe by his junior year he'll be decent.

That's my ceiling for him. Decent.

His frame is what will keeping him from playing. He’s got zero control over that. The reason he’s on a rocket ship downhill in the recruiting ratings is because scouts figured he’d grow and he hasn’t. He’s an inch shorter than Cook and 85 pounds lighter. Not trying to say he’d be asked to do power forward things, but just as a frame of reference.

People say Uthoff was skinny in high school and he was, but he also put 35 lbs of muscle on and it’s not gonna happen for Pat.

PM doesn’t have a great shot, prefers to take his not-great shot off the dribble (which means he’s going to find contact), and doesn’t bring defense to a team that needs it desperately.

He struggled bad getting pushed around down low in the state high school tournament and that’s against 99% kids who won’t play college ball, let alone D-1. He’s got 5-6” on most of them, and when he gets here he’ll just be average height with an average vertical. We have too many eggs in this basket.

Somebody tell me what makes this kid such an important recruit, and you can’t use the “because we don’t have anyone else” excuse.