Wagner Leaves To Play Football

[MelroseHawkins]

1) You don’t have to play them all. I can’t think of one single reason why increased depth is bad. Roster mismanagement is a coaching issue, which will be there regardless of 11, 12, or 13 players.

2) More players will be leaving.

3) Not taking advantage of available scholarships would be totally stupid. Especially when you consider that the ones being used would most likely be for grad transfers who would only tow one up for a single year.

That would be like voluntarily lowering your salary cap in a pro sport.

Very true. He doesn't have to play them all but at least has quality depth at his disposal. Players will choose to transfer who aren't getting the PT they think they want. That is just the normal anymore and most teams can expect 2-3 players leave after each season. Actually, that can be viewed as a good sign if it is because of better players in front of them on a team. Bad sign if players are leaving for other reasons beside being buried on the depth chart.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

This is major college basketball. These kids expect to play and they expect to play early. This isn’t like football where you can work them in on special teams for a few years first.

And yes while a great coach could probably manage 15 egos including his two sons, expecting Fran to be able to that is very naive in my opinion.

You’d be talking about 2 or 3 transfers every year. Then what? You go out and look for 2 or 3 more players? These kids are smart enough to see there wouldn’t be minutes there for them so you’d be taking flyers on kids or in essence you’d be back to square one of giving walk on scholarships.

Either Fran’s kids are good enough to be scholarship players at this level or not, it’s pretty simple. The nice thing about the situation is that it gives us flexibility and fluidity with our scholarships, but at no point do I think we should carry 13 scholarship guys and Fran’s two kids.

Depends on who gets the scholarships. Some players you wouldn't want to pass up. I think teams can expect 2-3 players to transfer each season, anymore. Actually can be a good sign showing a teams quality depth. See my post above about this.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

So he says "19/20 year old" and you want to correct him that he's actually 21. But instead of just saying he's 21, you say he will be 22 next year, just to make him sound older. Kinda like a 14 year old says I'll be 15 next week.

.....and Moss at 22 will be better than moss at 21.

 

[Hawk5656]

.....and Moss at 22 will be better than moss at 21.

Hopefully but some players take step backs instead of improve for various reasons. See Cordell and Baer last year for example.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

This is a legitimate point. It’s almost like he needs to bank the scollys until more players leave or graduate.

The more you look at what’s going on with poor defensive play, unbalanced recruiting classes, and poor recruiting at the point guard position, the more you have to think that he is just grasping at straws and does not know what the hell he is doing. He may have been lucky just to have had a mid-major coaching position. I may be wrong about this as I don’t quite remember, but Fran may not have been at any other school long enough to show he can coordinate his recruiting long term. In other words if your only at a school three or four years you really wouldn’t have had to plan to recruit to specific positions because of kids moving on or graduating.

These are serious flaws for a coaching staff. His recruiting should be planned out and based on antisipated departures at specific positions. So you focus on recruiting to those positions for those specific years. You can’t just go out and find a couple of BIGs (forwards and centers) because they are available and are willing to sign with you. This is especially true if you are short in the guard positions. Having six big men as juniors and seniors will do very little for you if you don’t have any guards or wing guys on the team. This really is a mess Fran has gotten himself into.

I see what you are saying but it can't be both, He can't be accused of being a bad recruiter and a bad coach at the other places. He has taken 4 different teams to the NCAA which not many other coaches have done. I get what you say about not being at a certain school long enough to evaluate his recruiting, which is a legitimate point and give you credit for thinking outside the box. Nice point. But, he has shown he can take players that are not his recruits and win with them which shows good coaching.

Who is Fran McCaffery? A paradigm? Which is it, is he a bad recruiter or bad coach? Hasn't proven to be both at the other schools who were "Cinderella" teams, as he has proven he can coach. This is why this last year feels like such an anomaly.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Don't sweat it, apology accepted. I was wondering why you were attacking me for correcting someone though.

Hey, that's just the way we roll around here!!

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Hopefully but some players take step backs instead of improve for various reasons. See Cordell and Baer last year for example.

It is the sophmore season that can be iffy at times. The sophmore slump is true. Many times, this is when other teams will worry about scheming against some of these sophmore players as others on said team have graduated. This is why it was suspected Jo Bo may not have the 3 pt numbers like last year since Jok graduated.

Hopefully these players than get better and play better as they turn to being veteran and going against younger players again, who, may be in their sophmore slumps! It is kind of the cyclical way it goes, IMO.

 

[NikeHawk21]

At no point? What if we have 11 scholarship guys, plus the 2 sons so we are full. Next thing you know, 2 stud grad transfers fall into Fran's lap. I say he should take them and pay his kids way for the year.

You are right that most years, it wouldn't change much. But when you have a huge advantage like that, you have to take it. If you want further proof that your line of thinking is wrong here, take a look at who liked your post.

Sure if that happens go for it. The chances of that happening are so unlikely it’s hardly even worth mentioning. You basically said as much yesterday when you said it’s unlikely we even land one quality grad transfer guard. Why would two stud grad transfers want to join a team with 11 scholarship guys and two coaches sons. There’s a better chance of Lebron James’ son playing at Iowa than that scenario happening.

 

[InGoodCo]

Two things.

You honestly believe that Fran would bench guys like Moss and Pemsl when they have played big minutes over the last two years? He had a hard time doing that with Wagner and Ellingson and they never even played big minutes.

Second I feel our current players with a year more experience are fine. Last year issues to me were more a mismanagement of the minutes and a team chemistry issue than they were a talent issue to me. If you think their are a bunch of grad transfer guards out there better than Moss, I think you’re in for a rude awakeneing.

Again I’m all for bringing on a grad transfer at guard, I just think the idea that we’re going to land multiple impact guys when we have literally brought in only a few transfers since Fran has been here is comical.

I absolutely think think Fran would play a Freshman or Grad Transfer over Moss or Pemsl or anyone if they are better and prove it. This is basically what happened to Uhl, BE and Wagner. It happened to McCabe, Ogelsby... you can just keep naming em. Sure, they still played but their roles continued to diminish as their careers went on at Iowa because better players came into the program - as could Moss's or Pemsl if better options are available.

 

[BryceC]

One doesn’t just hop on an even mediocre B1G football team after not playing the game for almost 5 years. That’s 1980s teen movie level stupid to think it’s possible.

Yet it's been done by Jimmy Graham recently. Antonio Gates never played a down of college football and made it on an NFL roster.

 

[InGoodCo]

So we need two new guards to go along with JBo, Moss, Dailey, Weiskamp, and Baer if Connor doesn’t pan out? That’s a lot of guys. Do you think we can bring in two guards better than the worst guy above or are we going to go 7 deep in the 1-3 spots (maybe 8 with Nunge)?

We have 13 scholarships - just like every other school, so we need that many players. We should ALWAYS be trying to recruit guys that are better then our current guys. That's kind of the name of the game. We were not good enough at the 1-2 or 3 this season, so Iowa has to get better at those spots as quickly as possible. How do you attain that? Better players through openings or developing what you have. If those players aren't out there, there's little that can be done. But they are out there with the current transfer market in this sport. Can Iowa get them? I don't honestly know, but I feel confident that they will try. Why am I confident in them trying? Because space has already been cleared. Because Iowa just went 4-14 in the B1G. I am positive that Iowa has targets in mind for those spots - and they are trying to fill it. Connor probably gets 1, and I honestly think there is at least 1 more departure. .The question I can't really answer is "will they work out or be an upgrade"... cause I don't know, and either does anyone else. But to stay put with something that has proven didn't work is IMO -that's a problem.

 

[InGoodCo]

I mean Ahmad Wagner played in 30 if our 33 games, and I think he was injured for the others. If you’re getting minutes in every game you’re not really benched. Fran couldn’t decide, so he tried to play everyone, and it hurt us.

I think he played everyone because Fran does typically favor a longer bench (not a fan of that and never have been) and because Iowa was 4-14 - the guys who should have been "getting the minutes" weren't getting it done in a lot of cases. What do you do when your "should be getting the minutes guy" isn't producing? You gotta try other options when things don't work and you continue to get beat. It's not like he was featuring Ahmad, he went in because we had 0 production happening at the 3 night in and night out. At the start of the season is where Ahmad played the most minutes because Baer was hurt, Nunge is a 4 and wasn't ready. As the season progressed his role was diminished and better options got the time. When you aren't set at a spot and your #1 options fail routinely, you go to #2 and #3 ... I feel like this is just like basic sports.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Sure if that happens go for it. The chances of that happening are so unlikely it’s hardly even worth mentioning. You basically said as much yesterday when you said it’s unlikely we even land one quality grad transfer guard. Why would two stud grad transfers want to join a team with 11 scholarship guys and two coaches sons. There’s a better chance of Lebron James’ son playing at Iowa than that scenario happening.

I think we was just pointing out, hypothetically, that if that were the case you wouldn't want to bank the scholly's in that case. Agree, unlikely to happen.

 

[NikeHawk21]

We have 13 scholarships - just like every other school, so we need that many players. We should ALWAYS be trying to recruit guys that are better then our current guys. That's kind of the name of the game. We were not good enough at the 1-2 or 3 this season, so Iowa has to get better at those spots as quickly as possible. How do you attain that? Better players through openings or developing what you have. If those players aren't out there, there's little that can be done. But they are out there with the current transfer market in this sport. Can Iowa get them? I don't honestly know, but I feel confident that they will try. Why am I confident in them trying? Because space has already been cleared. Because Iowa just went 4-14 in the B1G. I am positive that Iowa has targets in mind for those spots - and they are trying to fill it. Connor probably gets 1, and I honestly think there is at least 1 more departure. .The question I can't really answer is "will they work out or be an upgrade"... cause I don't know, and either does anyone else. But to stay put with something that has proven didn't work is IMO -that's a problem.

We bring in a top 50 recruit at the 3. One grad transfer to improve the 1-2 spots (+Cmac). Again I’ll say we don’t need two grad transfers.

 

[NikeHawk21]

I think he played everyone because Fran does typically favor a longer bench (not a fan of that and never have been) and because Iowa was 4-14 - the guys who should have been "getting the minutes" weren't getting it done in a lot of cases. What do you do when your "should be getting the minutes guy" isn't producing? You gotta try other options when things don't work and you continue to get beat. It's not like he was featuring Ahmad, he went in because we had 0 production happening at the 3 night in and night out. At the start of the season is where Ahmad played the most minutes because Baer was hurt, Nunge is a 4 and wasn't ready. As the season progressed his role was diminished and better options got the time. When you aren't set at a spot and your #1 options fail routinely, you go to #2 and #3 ... I feel like this is just like basic sports.

Again, in my opinion this season wasn’t so much a lack of talent as it was really bad coaching and lack of team chemistry. We were probably a guard short but still correct management of this rotation would have led to a much better season in my opinion.

The thing you don’t mention above is that Fran didn’t realize that Dailey at the 3 was a better option than Wagner and Nunge. I saw Moss and Dailey play really well alongside each other a few times this year, but they rarely got the opportunity.

 

[InGoodCo]

We bring in a top 50 recruit at the 3. One grad transfer to improve the 1-2 spots (+Cmac). Again I’ll say we don’t need two grad transfers.

I didn't say we did?

 

[InGoodCo]

Again, in my opinion this season wasn’t so much a lack of talent as it was really bad coaching and lack of team chemistry. We were probably a guard short but still correct management of this rotation would have led to a much better season in my opinion.

The thing you don’t mention above is that Fran didn’t realize that Dailey at the 3 was a better option than Wagner and Nunge. I saw Moss and Dailey play really well alongside each other a few times this year, but they rarely got the opportunity.

Dailey didn't start out that way. He developed into that as the season progressed. I never understand why people don't understand that sort of thing. It's not so black and white. November Dailey and February Daily -2 different players - and it took the slow progression and ramping up of minutes to do it. Also, things changed when Williams and Cmac both weren't options, they had to make different choices for back up PG. At the start of the year, Fran went with the most experienced guy because at the time, he was a better option.

 

[InGoodCo]

We bring in a top 50 recruit at the 3. One grad transfer to improve the 1-2 spots (+Cmac). Again I’ll say we don’t need two grad transfers.

Look, I laugh at people who say Fran should pay for Connor to play so we can bring in another player. Open spots are good if you need the help but I couldn't imagine 2 transfers. Connor is getting one of those. I did say having more open spots on a team that went 4-14 is better then no open spots, but I don't think Iowa is going to go out and try and field another team here, just that these departures open the door. \

 

[N8theGr8]

Again, in my opinion this season wasn’t so much a lack of talent as it was really bad coaching and lack of team chemistry. We were probably a guard short but still correct management of this rotation would have led to a much better season in my opinion.

The thing you don’t mention above is that Fran didn’t realize that Dailey at the 3 was a better option than Wagner and Nunge. I saw Moss and Dailey play really well alongside each other a few times this year, but they rarely got the opportunity.

I partially agree. I think the "bad coaching" was a result of a deficit of players at guard and small forward. We could have had a decent first team of Bohannon, Moss, Dailey, at the 1, 2, and 3 by the end of the year, but with Baer's shot being off all year and no backups at the 1 and 2, we weren't able to play that lineup because who would we have subbed? Nunge wasn't ready for the 3 and Wagner didn't provide any offense so realistically, we didn't have anyone else. We could use another 2 or 3 but we'll probably be fine if CJ Fredrick, Connor, and Wieskamp can contribute at those spots to provide a solid second team.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Dailey didn't start out that way. He developed into that as the season progressed. I never understand why people don't understand that sort of thing. It's not so black and white. November Dailey and February Daily -2 different players - and it took the slow progression and ramping up of minutes to do it. Also, things changed when Williams and Cmac both weren't options, they had to make different choices for back up PG. At the start of the year, Fran went with the most experienced guy because at the time, he was a better option.

Dailey’s best game of the season was in December against Colorado when he had 16 points on 5-7 shooting.

Fran just didn’t recognize or didn’t want to recognize that he was an upgrade at the 3 spot. The reason for that is he wanted to get minutes for Kriener, Pemsl, and Nunge. The only was he could do that is to play Nunge out of position.