He improved from his time at Fresno State to his time at Iowa. And I'll concede that perhaps Clemmons would have been a better addition to the list. But I'm still speaking in general terms. Improvements aren't without precedent, especially in junior and senior seasons.
Playing out of position
- Thread starter NikeHawk21
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He improved from his time at Fresno State to his time at Iowa. And I'll concede that perhaps Clemmons would have been a better addition to the list. But I'm still speaking in general terms. Improvements aren't without precedent, especially in junior and senior seasons.
I can't argue with that, I don't have any objective evidence to say they are as athletic as those guys. However, there isn't any evidence to say that they aren't every bit as athletic either. And if we're going off "eye-tests" here, I'll definitely say that both Moss and Dailey pass the eye-test for athleticism. They're just as tall and just as long. Both run and dunk with a few poster jams to their credit.
D
DDThompson
Guest
I didn’t say anyone was complaining about not playing 3-4 guards.
Nike made the point that multiple teams in the Final4 are playing 3-4 guards. I agreed with him. This is a trend in MBB. Playing 3-4 guards is different than playing two guards — lacking in quality or not.
onviously yes. Everybody has said that. Everybody.lightning1 said:
I have read we are playing 4s at 3 and 5. 5s at 4. 3s at 2. 2s at 1.lightning1 said:
I have not read where anyone has said that lack of quality guards has forced Fran to play 4s at 3 until you just did.
So you’re saying that because we don’t have quality 1s and 2s we don’t have quality 3s.
NikeHawk21
Well-Known Member
In terms of athleticism I’d rank:
1. May
2. Marble
3. Dailey
4. Moss
5. Gatens
6. Cartwright
Dailey and Moss are right there with Marble IMO
lightning1
Well-Known Member
I know what I see. And I know that this year's team is near last in Division 1 defense.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
If you missed that posters have said "Baer, Nunge and Pemsl aren't 3s", that's because you haven't been paying attention. nearly everyone here has said that, in multiple threads. Ask anyone else if they have seen that point discussed multiple times.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
lightning1
Well-Known Member
Could we be fine with another year of experience with the existing guards and adding the new guards? Sure. Could we be in the Sweet 16 next season? It's possible.
I don't happen to think so. Bohannon hasn't been able to guard anyone and he's 2 years in. Moss's offensive game has come around but he struggles to defend, he's 3 years in. Dailey has potential but he's 2 years in.
I think they'll get a little more efficient on offense, play a little smarter, cut down the turnovers, etc, as they become JRs and SRs. I fully expect to be back in the NCAA tournament in 2020 but I expect another early exit.
I don't happen to think so. Bohannon hasn't been able to guard anyone and he's 2 years in. Moss's offensive game has come around but he struggles to defend, he's 3 years in. Dailey has potential but he's 2 years in.
I think they'll get a little more efficient on offense, play a little smarter, cut down the turnovers, etc, as they become JRs and SRs. I fully expect to be back in the NCAA tournament in 2020 but I expect another early exit.
HawkGold
Well-Known Member
Fine..yes. not as fine as could be with a coach who can bench coach. Fran isnt bringing on upgrade guards soon.
You have said that a major part of defense is having the desire to play it. One way we can make a big jump is if the team (including Fran) all decide to make a huge effort to improve at that end. My hope is that having a really bad season like that is enough to get them going. I also hope Bohannon's foot was a huge issue that won't be there next year.
No way Gatens is above Moss or in line with Dailey. Putting both below Cartwright is laughable too. I could make an argument for putting them above Marble too. May is hard to dispute, though he was always injured so you wonder what could have been with those superman dunks....
Dailey:
Moss:
Find me a video of Gatens or Cartwright dunking from outside the circle. or on a set inbounds play, or scoring 19 points in under 2 minutes and maybe we'll talk.
PS, none of this is disrespect basketball still wise to Marble/Gatens as I think they both had very high basketball IQ's and were certainly quite athletic, but the main difference is not the athleticism.
Cartwright regressed under Fran for sure. You can't argue that.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
There's more to athleticism than dunking a basketball. I'm not going to argue with you. Moss and Dailey are part of the defensive problems we currently have. So, they are either not as athletic as you think or they are lazy. I'll let you decide which.
I'll reiterate: "In terms of defensive improvement, from 2013-14 to 14-15 we improved by 8.0ppg from 70.3 to 62.3ppg when we went from having 3 sophomore starters to 3 junior starters. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to happen again, but there is precedent." Then the argument was athleticism, but I think I made my point about athleticism too. Then the argument becomes coaching and player development, which brings me back to the start of this post.
To summarize: yes, there were obvious major flaws in our defense, but they can be corrected in a single offseason. It's not a guarantee, but I don't feel like a complete homer hedging on the side of improvement. And the reason I don't is because of the "body of work."
It's dumb because you're avoiding my primary points, but I actually can and will. You don't go from scoring 4.9ppg and 3.2apg as a freshman in a weak conference to JUCO to scoring 10.9ppg and 5.9apg in the BIG without help. Sure, he regressed his senior year, but Marble also emerged that year. So was it regression or was it more the emergence of a future NBA player?
See? You can argue anything. And this is a completely reasonable argument.
Getting back to my primary points: there is precedent for improvement and current guards on the roster can improve. You picked on the weakest link. I'll wait for you to argue that Marble, Jok, and Gatens didn't improve under Fran.
NikeHawk21
Well-Known Member
This is where your logic evades me. Above you're talking about sweet 16’s and then near the bottom you’re talking about an early exit in 2020.
While I agree this program should be pushing for sweet 16’s, after a 4 win B1G season that seems to be miles away. To me right now the goal is to get back to the dance next year. If that doesn’t happen I believe next year should be Fran’s last year at Iowa. While that calls for a near incredible turnaround, Fran has made the bed he currently lies in.
Lastly, in regards to Moss and Dailey. I’ve mentioned in several threads that their per minute stats are not that dissimilar to Marble and Jok at similar points in their careers. Will they take the next step? Who knows.
What does his freshman year stats have anything to do with Fran when he had another stop before coming to Iowa? Of course he got better at his JUCO but he got worse under Fran.
Didn't you mention something about a Sweet 16 run next year the other day?
There is an option C. They weren't used to playing with their teammates in the roles they were trying to fulfill due to unforeseen circumstances and guard shortages. That's partly on the coaches, but I can forgive them a little for that due to having a young team that pressed Dailey into use as our 5th (not an exaggeration) PG option coming into the season. Then they were expected to play zone in places they weren't familiar with and had true Freshman getting major minutes behind a confused front court (also on the coaches but possible to be remedied for next year).
Football analogy: Our top QB/MLB has foot problems and wasn't good at D anyway. Second string guy had hip surgery and left the team. True Freshman QB/MLB was too injured and sick to play. We had a little used 4th string WR/DB (Ellingson) who we tried to make play QB/MLB but he also got injured and was not good. So we took our 5th string guy, also a wide receiver and made him the QB/MLB.
^Dramatized a bit because QB is such an important position and PG duties can be a bit more distributed, but I did so to help make my point. Literally the 5th string option at PG to start the season. Fran tried everyone else first. Maybe he should have prepped Dailey earlier realizing he'd be the better option, but hindsight is 20/20. And next year having that experience should serve us well as we won't be figuring that out midseason.
