Playing out of position

[N8theGr8]

Didn't you mention something about a Sweet 16 run next year the other day?

A guy can dream, can't he? No one can say for certain. I bet if you were a "Loyola fan" in the same way that you're a "Hawk fan" last year, you'd have posted the same things. And during the tournament every game you'd say "we barely won that won, no chance we win the next one." Right about now you'd be saying "This is the weakest final 4 team in history, we didn't play anyone to get here." And maybe you'd be right. But I'd sure as hell be celebrating and dreaming about the future and bragging about my Hawks.

I choose the glass half full life (Maybe even call it 3/4 full)

 

[Knight78]

I’m with you on not giving up on Moss and Dailey.

Say what you want about Moss but averaging 11 points on 38% 3pt shooting as a sophomore isn’t a bad place to start. He struggled on defense last year as did every Hawkeye, but he did show some promise in that regard his freshman year. He looked like the best offensive player on our team the first two games in the Caymans when nobody else bothered to show up.

Dailey might even have more potential than Moss as he’s a better passer, has a better first step, and is a bit taller. I honestly thought he would transfer but I hope he stays around.

Both of these guys can be the athletic quiality guards we want if they continue to develop and Fran gives them minutes.

As a point of reference, Peter Jok averaged 7 points on 34% 3pt shooting as a sophomore. Granted, Moss averaged about 4 more minutes per game. And everyone here (myself included) considered Jok a "pure shooter" while shooting 34%. (Jok did shoot 40% as a junior but went back down to 38% as a senior.)

I agree with your assessment of Dailey. He has shown he can handle the ball effectively than Moss. But both need to step up their defense. Heck, everyone on the roster needs to step up their defense.

 

[NikeHawk21]

As a point of reference, Peter Jok averaged 7 points on 34% 3pt shooting as a sophomore. Granted, Moss averaged about 4 more minutes per game. And everyone here (myself included) considered Jok a "pure shooter" while shooting 34%. (Jok did shoot 40% as a junior but went back down to 38% as a senior.)

I agree with your assessment of Dailey. He has shown he can handle the ball effectively than Moss. But both need to step up their defense. Heck, everyone on the roster needs to step up their defense.

I think what happened with Moss was everyone wanted him to be a driver, but it turns out he is more of a spot up shooter, and he’s pretty good at that. Now he certainly has a ways to go with consistency and other areas but he’s got the tools to do it.

 

[lightning1]

I'll reiterate: "In terms of defensive improvement, from 2013-14 to 14-15 we improved by 8.0ppg from 70.3 to 62.3ppg when we went from having 3 sophomore starters to 3 junior starters. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to happen again, but there is precedent." Then the argument was athleticism, but I think I made my point about athleticism too. Then the argument becomes coaching and player development, which brings me back to the start of this post.

To summarize: yes, there were obvious major flaws in our defense, but they can be corrected in a single offseason. It's not a guarantee, but I don't feel like a complete homer hedging on the side of improvement. And the reason I don't is because of the "body of work."

I don't care what you are saying. I'm saying that some combination of lack of athleticism and lack of effort is responsible for our poor defense. That's my opinion. The numbers point to my opinion having merit.
Fran had to go primarily zone defense and he even admitted that he's never done it before. You could tell how much he hated doing it by his response.
Box +/- has Moss (SO) as a -2.0 defender and Dailey (SO) as a -1.6. How is that possible?
Box +/- has Gatens (as a JR because they didn't have his SO season) as a +1.3
Box +/- has May (his SO year) as a +3.3
Box +/- has Cartwright (His JR year for same reason as Gatens) as a +0.3
Box +/- has Marble (SO) as a +0.9
All of these Box +/- are Fran's 1st and 2nd season at Iowa, as their coach. Same coach. Same defensive scheme. And according to most Iowa fans, teams completely devoid of talent thanks to Lickliter.

 

[lightning1]

This is where your logic evades me. Above you're talking about sweet 16’s and then near the bottom you’re talking about an early exit in 2020.

While I agree this program should be pushing for sweet 16’s, after a 4 win B1G season that seems to be miles away. To me right now the goal is to get back to the dance next year. If that doesn’t happen I believe next year should be Fran’s last year at Iowa. While that calls for a near incredible turnaround, Fran has made the bed he currently lies in.

Lastly, in regards to Moss and Dailey. I’ve mentioned in several threads that their per minute stats are not that dissimilar to Marble and Jok at similar points in their careers. Will they take the next step? Who knows.

My logic only evades you if you fail to read the key words like "COULD" or comments like "It's possible" and "But I don't think so". Apparently you thought I was actually predicting those things to happen. I wasn't.

 

[lightning1]

You have said that a major part of defense is having the desire to play it. One way we can make a big jump is if the team (including Fran) all decide to make a huge effort to improve at that end. My hope is that having a really bad season like that is enough to get them going. I also hope Bohannon's foot was a huge issue that won't be there next year.

It is. Effort can overcome a lot of athletic deficiencies. But effort won't turn the worst BIG defender into one of the best BIG defenders. You know the saying: Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. What happens when the better athlete works hard too?

 

[lightning1]

No way Gatens is above Moss or in line with Dailey. Putting both below Cartwright is laughable too. I could make an argument for putting them above Marble too. May is hard to dispute, though he was always injured so you wonder what could have been with those superman dunks....

Dailey:
Moss:

Find me a video of Gatens or Cartwright dunking from outside the circle. or on a set inbounds play, or scoring 19 points in under 2 minutes and maybe we'll talk.

PS, none of this is disrespect basketball still wise to Marble/Gatens as I think they both had very high basketball IQ's and were certainly quite athletic, but the main difference is not the athleticism.

You really have no clue what it means to be athletic. You think it's all related to dunking a basketball. You're a moron! I'm done with you.

 

[lightning1]

There is an option C. They weren't used to playing with their teammates in the roles they were trying to fulfill due to unforeseen circumstances and guard shortages. That's partly on the coaches, but I can forgive them a little for that due to having a young team that pressed Dailey into use as our 5th (not an exaggeration) PG option coming into the season. Then they were expected to play zone in places they weren't familiar with and had true Freshman getting major minutes behind a confused front court (also on the coaches but possible to be remedied for next year).

Football analogy: Our top QB/MLB has foot problems and wasn't good at D anyway. Second string guy had hip surgery and left the team. True Freshman QB/MLB was too injured and sick to play. We had a little used 4th string WR/DB (Ellingson) who we tried to make play QB/MLB but he also got injured and was not good. So we took our 5th string guy, also a wide receiver and made him the QB/MLB.

^Dramatized a bit because QB is such an important position and PG duties can be a bit more distributed, but I did so to help make my point. Literally the 5th string option at PG to start the season. Fran tried everyone else first. Maybe he should have prepped Dailey earlier realizing he'd be the better option, but hindsight is 20/20. And next year having that experience should serve us well as we won't be figuring that out midseason.

Just shut up already. You have no clue what it means to be athletic.

 

[PCHawk]

It is. Effort can overcome a lot of athletic deficiencies. But effort won't turn the worst BIG defender into one of the best BIG defenders. You know the saying: Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. What happens when the better athlete works hard too?

We need effort to turn the worst defender into an average one. The only way that happens is if this last season really bothered them and they want to do something about it. We will know right away because if they don't come out in the opening game looking to make a statement of defense, it will say a lot.

 

[lightning1]

We need effort to turn the worst defender into an average one. The only way that happens is if this last season really bothered them and they want to do something about it. We will know right away because if they don't come out in the opening game looking to make a statement of defense, it will say a lot.

That's exactly what we need. This team put all of it's effort into the offensive end of the floor. Fran should be fired for allowing that to happen. I'd have had walk ons on the floor every night until they got the message or transferred. I don't care if I had to lose every game to make the point. Especially with Gutless Gary in my pocket.

 

[PCHawk]

That's exactly what we need. This team put all of it's effort into the offensive end of the floor. Fran should be fired for allowing that to happen. I'd have had walk ons on the floor every night until they got the message or transferred. I don't care if I had to lose every game to make the point. Especially with Gutless Gary in my pocket.

It's probably another reason why our offensive numbers seemed way too high compared to what one would think they would be with the players we have. Spend all your energy on that end and rest at the other. That could easily make a top 75 offense look like a top 25.

 

[trj]

It's probably another reason why our offensive numbers seemed way too high compared to what one would think they would be with the players we have. Spend all your energy on that end and rest at the other. That could easily make a top 75 offense look like a top 25.

I don’t know, man. 5 of Fran’s 8 seasons the defensive efficiency numbers have been solid. Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 have been the past 2 years.

Imo, the way this roster is currently constructed they will never be good defensively. People can talk about want to and effort all they want and it still won’t get JBO to move his feet, it won’t improve Baer’s lateral quickness. Defensive rotation and closing out shooters will not get any better. Garza and Nunge can learn and get better. We will find out about Wieskamp and everyone else are who they are.

I am hoping they become really efficient on the offensive end and just out score people. I realize I am by myself on this I think it is more realistic than they will become an average defensive team.

 

[NikeHawk21]

My logic only evades you if you fail to read the key words like "COULD" or comments like "It's possible" and "But I don't think so". Apparently you thought I was actually predicting those things to happen. I wasn't.

No I hear you, after this year the sweet 16 seems so far away to me it’s like a foreign language. I think everyone agrees we need guard help.

 

[PCHawk]

I don’t know, man. 5 of Fran’s 8 seasons the defensive efficiency numbers have been solid. Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 have been the past 2 years.

Imo, the way this roster is currently constructed they will never be good defensively. People can talk about want to and effort all they want and it still won’t get JBO to move his feet, it won’t improve Baer’s lateral quickness. Defensive rotation and closing out shooters will not get any better. Garza and Nunge can learn and get better. We will find out about Wieskamp and everyone else are who they are.

I am hoping they become really efficient on the offensive end and just out score people. I realize I am by myself on this I think it is more realistic than they will become an average defensive team.

I was talking about this particular team. Not Fran's tenure.

 

[trj]

I was talking about this particular team. Not Fran's tenure.

I don’t think this particular team will ever be good defensively as currently constructed anyway.

 

[PCHawk]

I don’t think this particular team will ever be good defensively as currently constructed anyway.

Having a 3 guard lineup lineup means the team won't be constructed as it was. We need everyone to put max effort in. We need Bohannon healthy. We need Cook to play at that end like he's trying to prove something. You're right that that might not be "good"but it can at least be average.

 

[Hawk5656]

Having a 3 guard lineup lineup means the team won't be constructed as it was. We need everyone to put max effort in. We need Bohannon healthy. We need Cook to play at that end like he's trying to prove something. You're right that that might not be "good"but it can at least be average.

I don't think Cook will be in an Iowa jersey next year.

 

[PCHawk]

I don't think Cook will be in an Iowa jersey next year.

Nor do I. That won't necessarily hurt us at the defensive end tho.

 

[SteveGarvey1]

Nor do I. That won't necessarily hurt us at the defensive end tho.

Whoever would be advising him to not come back to Iowa would really be doing this kid a disservice. He's not going to the NBA this year but his best bet to do so in 2019 would be to work on his game, keep his profile up, have most of his games televised to have his athleticism displayed, and get himself in the discussion to be drafter.

But I also think it's 50% at best that he comes back.

 

[IHawk94]

Defense gets a boost already IF Fran comes out and sticks with a 3 guard lineup and moves Baer/Nunge to the 4. As it's been mentioned before, this is a guard's game in today's basketball world and Fran can't change that as much as he's tried this last season. Playing 3 guards that match up on 3 guards and not a natural 4 man trying to guard a 3 man will help initially right off the bat. It was rare, don't get me wrong this last season, but when Fran had gone to the 3 guard lineup with moss/dailey/bohannon they tended to have a lot more competitive defense. Tyler Cook (who I believe will never wear an Iowa jersey again) was a 5 man trying to guard 4's, who in today's age are always stretch 4's that can drive, shoot, and do everything a guard can do. I see Nunge as type, to go along with Baer. Getting players to the natural positions will help defensively. Not saying it will make them championship contenders, or even a final four team, but it will definitely help win some more games.