Playing out of position

[DDThompson]

Most teams are playing at the very least 3 guards. Meaning the 2 & 3 spots are basically interchangeable, with the 1 spot being the PG.

Now 3 of the 4 final four teams are actually playing guys who used to be called 3s at the 4. Playing out of position only really hurts you defensively, but these teams are taking the calculated risk that what they give up in terms of size at the 4 spot will be more than made up for on the offensive end with the ability to spread the floor and create mismatches.

Iowa is doing the complete opposite. While these teams might be playing some bigger “3s” at the 4 spot, Iowa is playing 5s at the 4 spot and 4s at the 3 spot. I was calling almost all season for Fran to play these smaller lineup as I noticed that is what most successful teams were doing. The proof is in the pudding as they say, as Iowa had one of the worst seasons in program history.

The fact of the matter is that true back to the basket post up play is going by the wayside in basketball, it’s just not an efficient strategy. Basketball is a finesse game and it’s a guards game.

yes. I agree. But we’ve had boatloads of comments that we’re awful because we’re playing guys out of position. The comments haven’t been about not playing 3 or 4 guards.

And I don’t think playing extra guards has hurt team’s defensively. Scores don’t indicate that and some of these games have had horrible shooting percentages.

Not saying it hasn’t changed how the game is played. Still plenty-o-games in the 50s and 60s .

 

[lightning1]

yes. I agree. But we’ve had boatloads of comments that we’re awful because we’re playing guys out of position. The comments haven’t been about not playing 3 or 4 guards.

And I don’t think playing extra guards has hurt team’s defensively. Scores don’t indicate that and some of these games have had horrible shooting percentages.

Not saying it hasn’t changed how the game is played. Still plenty-o-games in the 50s and 60s .

Yes. Out of position at almost every position, due to lack of quality guards. If you failed to understand that point, after the past 4 months, it's because you choose to not understand that point.

 

[thedukeofearl]

Speed doesn't mean jack shit if you have no basketball IQ. Basketball is a skills game. I can name 100 great college basketball players that didn't have real speed. I coached a kid that ran a 10.9 split in the 4x100 as a soph in high school. Best pure athlete I have ever coached. Absolute turnover machine on the basketball court. Couldn't use his off hand but quick enough to beat almost anyone off the dribble. Which was nice until he took the ball past the perimeter defender and drove it into the 2 big defenders in the paint for a turnover. Liked to shoot from about 2 ft beyond his effective range too. Not coachable. Not a good basketball player. Great athlete.
CW wasn't all that great an athlete and his basketball skill set was not D-1 material.

You talking about that trash -talking Larry Bird.....

 

[thedukeofearl]

TL DR

Love Larry Davis. There are personal friends of mine that say I remind them of LD, but what the hell do they know.....

 

[DDThompson]

Yes. Out of position at almost every position, due to lack of quality guards. If you failed to understand that point, after the past 4 months, it's because you choose to not understand that point.

Is it difficult for you to understand that playing 3 or 4 guards is not the same as playing 2 “lack of quality guards”?

 

[lightning1]

Is it difficult for you to understand that playing 3 or 4 guards is not the same as playing 2 “lack of quality guards”?

That's not what people are complaining about. Lack of quality guards has forced Fran to play Dailey and Ellingson as a back up PG and Bohannon as the main PG. None of them are PGs. Lack of quality guards has forced Fran to play Baer, Nunge, Wagner, Pemsl at the 3. None of them are 3s.

 

[lightning1]

The fact remains that we are 2 BIG quality guards away from challenging for the top of the Big Ten/Sweet 16 type of run. If those spots are filled with 2 FR that need to mature into "quality Big Ten guard" roles, we are 2 years away from that goal. At least.

 

[N8theGr8]

The fact remains that we are 2 BIG quality guards away from challenging for the top of the Big Ten/Sweet 16 type of run. If those spots are filled with 2 FR that need to mature into "quality Big Ten guard" roles, we are 2 years away from that goal. At least.

Moss and Dailey are those two guys. They grew up this year and have a bit more growing up to do, but they both have the athleticism and skills to be "Quality Big Ten Guards® " next season. They need quality backups in addition to their improvement though, and that's what we've got coming. I fully believe that a minimum of 2 of the 3 between Wieskamp, McCaffery, and Fredrick will be high level contributors. So yes, I'm on board the hype train that we can be a sweet 16 team next year.

 

[NikeHawk21]

The fact remains that we are 2 BIG quality guards away from challenging for the top of the Big Ten/Sweet 16 type of run. If those spots are filled with 2 FR that need to mature into "quality Big Ten guard" roles, we are 2 years away from that goal. At least.

I’m not so sure on that. Let’s say for instance Weiskamp is as good as advertised for a top 50 kid and gives us 10 a night with solid D and we also add an impact grad transfer at the 1/2 spots. Do I think we are all of he sudden contenders in the B1G? No, not really.

Here’s why (this coming from a guy who said we are not that far off talent wise). As much as I would like to think it will happen I have a very tough time believing that Fran would stop trying to find minutes for Kriener and Pemsl, and pushing Nunge to the 3 spot. A really good coach would identify this roster and say okay we have Cook, Garza, and Nunge, those are three bigs who will take up most of the minutes at the 4&5 who I need to surround with ball handlers and shooters, Pemsl and Kriener are good enough to play at this level but not needed on this particular team.

So again, I think the talent has been there, but I also think Fran did a horrible job managing the roster this year. Looking back on it I actually feel Fran has underperformed with many of his teams. Our three tournament teams all finished in the top 25 in KenPom and what did we have to show for it? Two 7 seeds and a play in 11 seed? On paper that spells underperforming for me.

 

[Hawk5656]

Moss and Dailey are those two guys. They grew up this year and have a bit more growing up to do, but they both have the athleticism and skills to be "Quality Big Ten Guards® " next season. They need quality backups in addition to their improvement though, and that's what we've got coming. I fully believe that a minimum of 2 of the 3 between Wieskamp, McCaffery, and Fredrick will be high level contributors. So yes, I'm on board the hype train that we can be a sweet 16 team next year.

Is this sarcasm?

 

[PCHawk]

The fact remains that we are 2 BIG quality guards away from challenging for the top of the Big Ten/Sweet 16 type of run. If those spots are filled with 2 FR that need to mature into "quality Big Ten guard" roles, we are 2 years away from that goal. At least.

If we are 2 years away from having the guards that's bad because who knows where our bigs will be in 2 years.

 

[NikeHawk21]

If we are 2 years away from having the guards that's bad because who knows where our bigs will be in 2 years.

Exactly. Again I don’t think we are that far away talent wise. Weiskamp is a nice addition, and another upgrade at guard wouldn’t hurt. Ultimately it will come down to Fran finding the right mix and focusing on defense to get back to the dance. After a 4 win B1G season, I’m skeptical.

 

[HawkGold]

If we are 2 years away from having the guards that's bad because who knows where our bigs will be in 2 years.

When does Conner graduate? That's when Fran will bring in a guard.

 

[lightning1]

I’m not so sure on that. Let’s say for instance Weiskamp is as good as advertised for a top 50 kid and gives us 10 a night with solid D and we also add an impact grad transfer at the 1/2 spots. Do I think we are all of he sudden contenders in the B1G? No, not really.

Here’s why (this coming from a guy who said we are not that far off talent wise). As much as I would like to think it will happen I have a very tough time believing that Fran would stop trying to find minutes for Kriener and Pemsl, and pushing Nunge to the 3 spot. A really good coach would identify this roster and say okay we have Cook, Garza, and Nunge, those are three bigs who will take up most of the minutes at the 4&5 who I need to surround with ball handlers and shooters, Pemsl and Kriener are good enough to play at this level but not needed on this particular team.

So again, I think the talent has been there, but I also think Fran did a horrible job managing the roster this year. Looking back on it I actually feel Fran has underperformed with many of his teams. Our three tournament teams all finished in the top 25 in KenPom and what did we have to show for it? Two 7 seeds and a play in 11 seed? On paper that spells underperforming for me.

IF we have that coming with the players signed for 2018, we are still 2 seasons away from contention in the BIG. IMO anyway.

 

[lightning1]

If we are 2 years away from having the guards that's bad because who knows where our bigs will be in 2 years.

Exactly. We are 2 years away with incoming FR guards. That's NIT next year and 1st/2nd round loss the year after.

 

[N8theGr8]

Exactly. We are 2 years away with incoming FR guards. That's NIT next year and 1st/2nd round loss the year after.

Everyone keeps underestimating Fran's development of guards. Marble, Jok, Gatens, May, Cartwright all got significantly better their last 2 years on campus. In terms of defensive improvement, from 2013-14 to 14-15 we improved by 8.0ppg from 70.3 to 62.3ppg when we went from having 3 sophomore starters to 3 junior starters. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to happen again, but there is precedent.

Edit: implication here being that Bohannon, Moss, and Dailey will get better in addition to adding high quality new talent.

 

[NikeHawk21]

The fact remains that we are 2 BIG quality guards away from challenging for the top of the Big Ten/Sweet 16 type of run. If those spots are filled with 2 FR that need to mature into "quality Big Ten guard" roles, we are 2 years away from that goal. At least.

IF we have that coming with the players signed for 2018, we are still 2 seasons away from contention in the BIG. IMO anyway.

The first post above is kind of misleading then. I was saying if Joe was as good as advertised and we brought in a legit grad transfer guard, that would be your two guards needed.

Either way after a 4 win B1G season I’m not concerned so much with competing for a B1G championship. My goal would be to make the NCAA tournament. If Cook returns I think we have the talent to do it, I’m just not sure Fran will be able to guide us there.

 

[Hawk5656]

Everyone keeps underestimating Fran's development of guards. Marble, Jok, Gatens, May, Cartwright all got significantly better their last 2 years on campus. In terms of defensive improvement, from 2013-14 to 14-15 we improved by 8.0ppg from 70.3 to 62.3ppg when we went from having 3 sophomore starters to 3 junior starters. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to happen again, but there is precedent.

Edit: implication here being that Bohannon, Moss, and Dailey will get better in addition to adding high quality new talent.

Cartwright actually got worse.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Everyone keeps underestimating Fran's development of guards. Marble, Jok, Gatens, May, Cartwright all got significantly better their last 2 years on campus. In terms of defensive improvement, from 2013-14 to 14-15 we improved by 8.0ppg from 70.3 to 62.3ppg when we went from having 3 sophomore starters to 3 junior starters. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to happen again, but there is precedent.

Edit: implication here being that Bohannon, Moss, and Dailey will get better in addition to adding high quality new talent.

I’m with you on not giving up on Moss and Dailey.

Say what you want about Moss but averaging 11 points on 38% 3pt shooting as a sophomore isn’t a bad place to start. He struggled on defense last year as did every Hawkeye, but he did show some promise in that regard his freshman year. He looked like the best offensive player on our team the first two games in the Caymans when nobody else bothered to show up.

Dailey might even have more potential than Moss as he’s a better passer, has a better first step, and is a bit taller. I honestly thought he would transfer but I hope he stays around.

Both of these guys can be the athletic quiality guards we want if they continue to develop and Fran gives them minutes.

 

[lightning1]

Everyone keeps underestimating Fran's development of guards. Marble, Jok, Gatens, May, Cartwright all got significantly better their last 2 years on campus. In terms of defensive improvement, from 2013-14 to 14-15 we improved by 8.0ppg from 70.3 to 62.3ppg when we went from having 3 sophomore starters to 3 junior starters. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to happen again, but there is precedent.

Edit: implication here being that Bohannon, Moss, and Dailey will get better in addition to adding high quality new talent.

Marble, Gatens, May and Cartwright were all better athlete's to begin with. That helped a lot.