Losing Cook would be a huge blow in general.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Playing out of position
- Thread starter NikeHawk21
- Start date
Losing Cook would be a huge blow in general.
Losing Cook would be a huge blow in general.
Defensively I completely disagree, and offensively I don't think so as much. What does he bring that isn't "replaceable"?
Defensively I completely disagree, and offensively I don't think so as much. What does he bring that isn't "replaceable"?
Talent.
Talent.
So a dunk every now and again?
So a dunk every now and again?
He was our leading scorer, leading rebounder and only player on our roster to receive an All Conference vote from the B1G coaches. If it makes you feel better to downplay our best players abilities because you don't think he will come back have at it.
I don't care what you are saying. I'm saying that some combination of lack of athleticism and lack of effort is responsible for our poor defense. That's my opinion. The numbers point to my opinion having merit.
Fran had to go primarily zone defense and he even admitted that he's never done it before. You could tell how much he hated doing it by his response.
Box +/- has Moss (SO) as a -2.0 defender and Dailey (SO) as a -1.6. How is that possible?
Box +/- has Gatens (as a JR because they didn't have his SO season) as a +1.3
Box +/- has May (his SO year) as a +3.3
Box +/- has Cartwright (His JR year for same reason as Gatens) as a +0.3
Box +/- has Marble (SO) as a +0.9
All of these Box +/- are Fran's 1st and 2nd season at Iowa, as their coach. Same coach. Same defensive scheme. And according to most Iowa fans, teams completely devoid of talent thanks to Lickliter.
And that's a valid opinion, and I'd agree on the lack of effort front. However, to play devils advocate, the numbers you point to then could be due to a lack of effort then and not a lack of athleticism. And lack of effort can be corrected in off-season coaching. That does bring up an interesting point though as the numbers you are using can also point to odd overall team stats which can make a player appear worse than they actually are. There is an adjustment made to the BPM metric to equivalate overall OBPM to the teams adjusted team offensive rating. Since DBPM is simply BPM-OBPM, this means that high performing offenses with the same defensive stats ostensibly result in worse DBPM without actually being worse. Peter Jok is a perfect case study here going from a DBPM of 0.7 his junior year to a DBPM of -0.4 his senior year. His rebounding numbers increased substantially, he got his steals, and he even blocked a couple shots, however, his numbers went down due to his team's statistical offensive improvement. It's a weird statistic that can be useful, but is probably less useful in extreme cases like having a great offense and a terrible defense.
You really have no clue what it means to be athletic. You think it's all related to dunking a basketball. You're a moron! I'm done with you.
I never claimed that athleticism is 100% how well can you dunk a basketball. I am going to stand by the fact that there is a correlation though and that it is one of the less subjective measures. I will certainly concede that there are other measures of athleticism, just not ones we have available to see plainly on tape. It's very hard to get at measuring athleticism.
Just shut up already. You have no clue what it means to be athletic.
This post had nothing to do with athleticism.
Not downplaying just comparing to his assumed "replacement" who's averages are very similar with the exception of FG% and PPG. Nunge is either less than a point or better than Cook on both the defensive and offensive side of the ball while playing out of position (granted so was Cook), and playing less minutes. He was the leading rebounder...but by .4 to Luka Garza who will be in the lineup still. I don't think Cook will be back next year, but if he does do I think Iowa basketball will be any better or worse without him? That's up in the air. Depends on his desire to expand his game and play defense (both which Nunge displayed pretty well this year btw). Call it what you want but I'm looking at statistics.
Not downplaying just comparing to his assumed "replacement" who's averages are very similar with the exception of FG% and PPG. Nunge is either less than a point or better than Cook on both the defensive and offensive side of the ball while playing out of position (granted so was Cook), and playing less minutes. He was the leading rebounder...but by .4 to Luka Garza who will be in the lineup still. I don't think Cook will be back next year, but if he does do I think Iowa basketball will be any better or worse without him? That's up in the air. Depends on his desire to expand his game and play defense (both which Nunge displayed pretty well this year btw). Call it what you want but I'm looking at statistics.
Cook averaged 10 more points per game than Nunge. Tyler was our best player by far last year and losing him would no doubt be a big blow.
Because scoring a lot was the problem? He averaged 9.4 points more than Nunge on 12% better fg% in 12 minutes more per game on about 6 more FG attempts. I'm not expecting him to be Cook and average 15 ppg, but I think double digits ppg for Nunge is definitely realistic. with Bohannon, Garza, and Moss also averaging double figures and adding Dailey/Wieskamp to the mix in the starting lineup and rotation I think the players that will play can make up the difference, and I'm saying that before the offseason and developments have been made. Nunge is a better defender which is where the Hawkeyes need more. Cook also is where playing players out of position started. Playing him at the 4 required Nunge and Baer to play the 3 (not their natural position to their skillset), also not having enough guards (but that's a different topic).
Because scoring a lot was the problem? He averaged 9.4 points more than Nunge on 12% better fg% in 12 minutes more per game on about 6 more FG attempts. I'm not expecting him to be Cook and average 15 ppg, but I think double digits ppg for Nunge is definitely realistic. with Bohannon, Garza, and Moss also averaging double figures and adding Dailey/Wieskamp to the mix in the starting lineup and rotation I think the players that will play can make up the difference, and I'm saying that before the offseason and developments have been made. Nunge is a better defender which is where the Hawkeyes need more. Cook also is where playing players out of position started. Playing him at the 4 required Nunge and Baer to play the 3 (not their natural position to their skillset), also not having enough guards (but that's a different topic).
You sound like one of those guys that say "we didn't want or need him anyways" when we miss on a recruit. Tyler was far and away our best overall player last year and him not coming back would be a major blow for next year. I'm guessing you wouldn't think losing Jordan would be a big deal because he's so bad at defense too?
No that would be a really huge blow actually. We'd have 1 PG that isn't a natural PG, sound familiar? I'm actually very understanding when recruits don't pick Iowa, but I do not lie to myself and say we didn't want them or need them if we definitely wanted them or needed them. You have your own opinion, which is all it is, and I have mine which is backed up by statistics and an explanation. I just don't see "major blow". I see a starting lineup of Bohannon/Moss/Dailey(Wieskamp)/Nunge/Garza who can all shoot the three, space the floor and will be quicker on the defensive side of the ball, and as we've seen this year a pretty good rim protector in Nunge.
No that would be a really huge blow actually. We'd have 1 PG that isn't a natural PG, sound familiar? I'm actually very understanding when recruits don't pick Iowa, but I do not lie to myself and say we didn't want them or need them if we definitely wanted them or needed them. You have your own opinion, which is all it is, and I have mine which is backed up by statistics and an explanation. I just don't see "major blow". I see a starting lineup of Bohannon/Moss/Dailey(Wieskamp)/Nunge/Garza who can all shoot the three, space the floor and will be quicker on the defensive side of the ball, and as we've seen this year a pretty good rim protector in Nunge.
Losing Jordan would be a really huge blow but losing Cook who's better than Jordan is no big deal haha! You have no stats backing up anyone is near as good as Cook in the front court which is why he was our leading scorer and best player.
There's more to losing a player than is he the best player or not? It's whether you have somebody behind them to fill the shoes respectively. Bohannon doesn't have that, Nunge and Baer have a combined 11 PPG which is Cook's backups. Luka Garza averaged .4 less rebounds and 3 less PPG who is also a frontcourt player. The point isn't whether we'll have a player as good or better than Cook (right now, no we don't have that). The point is can Iowa basketball fill the shoes as a team to be just as good or better than having Tyler Cook, and my answer is yes. Defensively without a doubt would be better, and offensively would be efficient enough with the players they have to make up the difference he leaves on offense.
There's more to losing a player than is he the best player or not? It's whether you have somebody behind them to fill the shoes respectively. Bohannon doesn't have that, Nunge and Baer have a combined 11 PPG which is Cook's backups. Luka Garza averaged .4 less rebounds and 3 less PPG who is also a frontcourt player. The point isn't whether we'll have a player as good or better than Cook (right now, no we don't have that). The point is can Iowa basketball fill the shoes as a team to be just as good or better than having Tyler Cook, and my answer is yes. Defensively without a doubt would be better, and offensively would be efficient enough with the players they have to make up the difference he leaves on offense.
I'm sure you were one of those that said we'd be just as good or better off without Jok too. We don't have the players behind Cook to make up for losing that type of talent. Bear/Nunge/Pemsl aren't even as close to as good as Tyler is.
Maybe not make up his production offensively all the way, but other players around Nunge and Baer will also help. I would expect more from Garza to get to maybe that 15ppg, he won't be doing it in the way Cook does by dunking or shooting inside of 10 ft all the time, but I think he could jump into that. I also think with more spacing on the floor Bohannon will get more open looks and Moss won't be as heavily relied on to get to the basket.There is enough production coming back that it can make the difference. Peter Jok and Tyler Cook are two different players, situations, and teams. Peter Jok was a 1st team all B10 players, Cook was an honorable mention. He could shoot from just about anywhere on the floor and although he wasn't great at it, he defended the other teams best guard. The loss of Jok was felt this year. Iowa had 1 senior returning after Peter Jok left and he didn't even play this year, where as Cook the team is half upperclassman. I think Jok had more leadership than Cook had this year and that also didn't help this team this year.
Maybe not make up his production offensively all the way, but other players around Nunge and Baer will also help. I would expect more from Garza to get to maybe that 15ppg, he won't be doing it in the way Cook does by dunking or shooting inside of 10 ft all the time, but I think he could jump into that. I also think with more spacing on the floor Bohannon will get more open looks and Moss won't be as heavily relied on to get to the basket.There is enough production coming back that it can make the difference. Peter Jok and Tyler Cook are two different players, situations, and teams. Peter Jok was a 1st team all B10 players, Cook was an honorable mention. He could shoot from just about anywhere on the floor and although he wasn't great at it, he defended the other teams best guard. The loss of Jok was felt this year. Iowa had 1 senior returning after Peter Jok left and he didn't even play this year, where as Cook the team is half upperclassman. I think Jok had more leadership than Cook had this year and that also didn't help this team this year.
Tyler and Jordan drew the most attention from opposing teams defensively by a mile. Losing Tyler is going to make life a lot harder for our big men especially Luka since he'll face the opposing teams best big defender instead.
NikeHawk21
Well-Known Member
I certainly don’t want to lose Cook and I’m not sure we’d be a better team without him, however there are legitimate arguments to be made that we would improve in certain areas. I made a thread about it.
1. Spacing/3pt shooting. With Nunge at the 4 you could have a starting lineup where all 5 guys can stroke the 3. Nunge operates on the perimeter primarily which would give space for Garza to operate.
2. Defense. This is pretty apparent. Nunge is a big upgrade compared to Cook.
3. Turnovers. Cook turns it over a lot.
Again, Cook was our leading scorer and certainly item #1 on our opponents scouting report, so I don’t want to lose him. That said if he chooses to leave, our team will just be constructed and play in a different manner.
1. Spacing/3pt shooting. With Nunge at the 4 you could have a starting lineup where all 5 guys can stroke the 3. Nunge operates on the perimeter primarily which would give space for Garza to operate.
2. Defense. This is pretty apparent. Nunge is a big upgrade compared to Cook.
3. Turnovers. Cook turns it over a lot.
Again, Cook was our leading scorer and certainly item #1 on our opponents scouting report, so I don’t want to lose him. That said if he chooses to leave, our team will just be constructed and play in a different manner.
I certainly don’t want to lose Cook and I’m not sure we’d be a better team without him, however there are legitimate arguments to be made that we would improve in certain areas. I made a thread about it.
1. Spacing/3pt shooting. With Nunge at the 4 you could have a starting lineup where all 5 guys can stroke the 3. Nunge operates on the perimeter primarily which would give space for Garza to operate.
2. Defense. This is pretty apparent. Nunge is a big upgrade compared to Cook.
3. Turnovers. Cook turns it over a lot.
Again, Cook was our leading scorer and certainly item #1 on our opponents scouting report, so I don’t want to lose him. That said if he chooses to leave our team will just be constructed and play in a different manner.
This is what I'm trying to say. Besides the first point, I'm not sure we'd be a better team but i'm not sure we'd be a worse team either, but that's nit picky. Defense and spacing are the biggest things, which in today's game are pretty big points. All good teams have guys that can create that spacing. All defenders have to be true to guarding their man inside and outside. With Cook you can sag off. With Nunge and Baer moving to the 4 you also put wieskamp or dailey out there who you have to respect in driving and shooting whereas Nunge at the 3 was probably just a shooter and not much of dribble driver. The pieces are there to make up for Cook's production. We don't have 1 player that equals Cook....just yet, but we have enough players to equal his production or better (cross our fingers) to become a more winning team that plays a different style that's more up to speed with today's game.
I certainly don’t want to lose Cook and I’m not sure we’d be a better team without him, however there are legitimate arguments to be made that we would improve in certain areas. I made a thread about it.
1. Spacing/3pt shooting. With Nunge at the 4 you could have a starting lineup where all 5 guys can stroke the 3. Nunge operates on the perimeter primarily which would give space for Garza to operate.
2. Defense. This is pretty apparent. Nunge is a big upgrade compared to Cook.
3. Turnovers. Cook turns it over a lot.
Again, Cook was our leading scorer and certainly item #1 on our opponents scouting report, so I don’t want to lose him. That said if he chooses to leave, our team will just be constructed and play in a different manner.
Nunge isn't really a threat from 3 point range. He only shot 33% on the season and was worse than that in conference play. Also Nunge and Cook's turnover percentage were almost identical.
NikeHawk21
Well-Known Member
The stroke is there with Nunge you can see it. You can see it on his makes, and he continues to shoot the ball with confidence. He is at least a threat out there.Nunge isn't really a threat from 3 point range. He only shot 33% on the season and was worse than that in conference play. Also Nunge and Cook's turnover percentage were almost identical.
Valid point on the turnovers also considering we asked Cook to do a lot.
