Milestone

[HawkGold]

Can you provide some data (from legit sources like peer reviewed journals or even health organizations) that describes the safety problems with vaccines over time? I think you could make a compelling case regarding your fear of vaccines if you were to provide some relevant data showing a poor track record for vaccines and their safety.

Any data you provide regarding safety must be weighed against this (per World Health Organization's website):
Vaccination is one of the best ways to prevent diseases. In total, vaccines are estimated to save between 2 and 3 million lives every year.

So, if vaccines save up to 3 million lives per year, I'm curious, in terms of risk vs benefit, how many people are being killed by vaccines?



BTW-- I totally agree that governments, universities, hospitals all need to address health inequities. We are working on it here but it's a massive problem. So, I agree with you on that one.

They are there. You can look. But, can you tell me that corruption doesn't exist? Was a part of a big USDA study. Results weren't what was wanted. Never published.

Go ahead and drink the cool aide. The vax marchers lose me when they say its the unvaxed problem while vaxed are dying. You'll want the cake and eat it too. Tell me again, why was J and J removed?

Why was Novovax not used? There are studies on ivermectin, but you chose to ignore it.

Regardless it still gets back to this. You want me to give up my rights but those who don't take care of their health ARE the real problem. I guess it's their right.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Thank you! I actually enjoy discussing issues (even politics) but oftentimes people can't respectfully disagree about stuff anymore (it seems) without resorting to ad hominem personal attacks. I am not an epidemiologist, and I'm also still learning about all of this. I appreciate the thoughts.

I also know that I'm wrong about a LOT of things (politics, sports, even health care stuff). We're all just a bunch of hawk fans trying to figure out our insane world.

You are exactly right. One cannot have an opinion anymore because if they disagree, the other will resort to tactic or just shut down. I hope I most times respect one's opinions or thoughts. I enjoy debating with uihawk82. Everybody has a right to an opinion. Suppressing people is NOT the answer. Suppression has proved to be detrimental in society on many levels.

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

You are exactly right. One cannot have an opinion anymore because if they disagree, the other will resort to tactic or just shut down. I hope I most times respect one's opinions or thoughts. I enjoy debating with uihawk82. Everybody has a right to an opinion. Suppressing people is NOT the answer. Suppression has proved to be detrimental in society on many levels.

Likewise, I have no problem listening/respecting other's opinion. However, I do have a problem when individuals feel the need to tell others what to do like, "get vaccinated". Reading comments from the likes of racerhawk & others is what I believe has caused a lot of americans want to not "listen to the experts". Telling people to get the vaccine to "protect others" is asinine for two very simple reasons:

- those who have any concern about getting the virus have a choice to get vaccinated and if the vaccines work then they're protected.

- those who choose not to get the vaccine are not concerned about the virus and they're no threat to anyone who has concern about getting the virus cause those individuals have a choice to be protected w/ the vaccine.

I do not understand why those telling people to get vaccinated can not comprehend this very simple concept.

 

[racerhawk]

Likewise, I have no problem listening/respecting other's opinion. However, I do have a problem when individuals feel the need to tell others what to do like, "get vaccinated". Reading comments from the likes of racerhawk & others is what I believe has caused a lot of americans want to not "listen to the experts". Telling people to get the vaccine to "protect others" is asinine for two very simple reasons:

- those who have any concern about getting the virus have a choice to get vaccinated and if the vaccines work then they're protected.

- those who choose not to get the vaccine are not concerned about the virus and they're no threat to anyone who has concern about getting the virus cause those individuals have a choice to be protected w/ the vaccine.

I do not understand why those telling people to get vaccinated can not comprehend this very simple concept.

My comments echo the experts. They're not just my opinion. Please don't conflate. Thanks.

I know people have the choice to not get vaccinated. I absolutely understand that. Saying "get vaccinated" shouldn't be so triggering. If you regard my statements, which echo basically every public health expert, as simple conjecture and rhetoric, that's fine. It's not true, but it's fine.

I am fully aware of people's right to not get vaccinated. I also may have a slightly different perspective than you because I see actual body bags. Just to let you know, I'm worried about more than myself as taking care of poor, sick, elderly, and mentally ill folks is my calling in life.

I have no desire to do a Fox tv style inflammatory dialogue. Really. Have a great day.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Interesting. What is the other disease, if you can say

Likewise, I have no problem listening/respecting other's opinion. However, I do have a problem when individuals feel the need to tell others what to do like, "get vaccinated". Reading comments from the likes of racerhawk & others is what I believe has caused a lot of americans want to not "listen to the experts". Telling people to get the vaccine to "protect others" is asinine for two very simple reasons:

- those who have any concern about getting the virus have a choice to get vaccinated and if the vaccines work then they're protected.

- those who choose not to get the vaccine are not concerned about the virus and they're no threat to anyone who has concern about getting the virus cause those individuals have a choice to be protected w/ the vaccine.

I do not understand why those telling people to get vaccinated can not comprehend this very simple concept.

This is what I always thought. I never understood this. If one really believes in the vax, shouldn't they feel safe? I mean, why does one have to push it on others if they are vaccinated if they feel it works. It should be a choice. If someone who is not vaccinated unfortunately gets it and passes away, it's on them, as that was their choice.

Vax the elderly or those who have co-morbids if they choose to, because, there is a good chance they won't live past any long term effects of taking it. The scale goes in their favor of taking it in that situation. But, they need to be real careful about loading kids and young teens up with it, as there could be long term medical implications as we don't have long term data at this point.

I mean, could a teenage girl have issues bearing children in 10-15 years? Could that teenager have some weird myocarditis or other freak condition going on in 15-20 yrs? Somebody going to get some unexplained autoimmune condition? Those are the questions.

 

[racerhawk]

This is what I always thought. I never understood this. If one really believes in the vax, shouldn't they feel safe? I mean, why does one have to push it on others if they are vaccinated if they feel it works. It should be a choice. If someone who is not vaccinated unfortunately gets it and passes away, it's on them, as that was their choice.

Vax the elderly or those who have co-morbids if they choose to, because, there is a good chance they won't live past any long term effects of taking it. The scale goes in their favor of taking it in that situation. But, they need to be real careful about loading kids and young teens up with it, as there could be long term medical implications as we don't have long term data at this point.

I mean, could a teenage girl have issues bearing children in 10-15 years? Could that teenager have some weird myocarditis or other freak condition going on in 15-20 yrs? Somebody going to get some unexplained autoimmune condition? Those are the questions.

It's good to ask questions, and it's good to be skeptical. I appreciate your curiosity.

I find the extreme fear about this vaccine a little "outsized" though. I appreciate the fear and the hyperbole in the (mostly conservative) media about this, which is echoed on this board, but I like to look at actual risks.

For example, do y'all drink alcohol? I do. I love good bourbon. There is a ton of evidence that alcohol is not good for us. ETOH breaks down and acetaldehyde is a metabolite. It's classified as a carcinogen.

My point is that people take all sorts of risks with their health all of the time. I'm just suggesting that we put the vaccine's risk in perspective. . Part of that perspective is weighing it against the actual disease sequelae.

In my world (of all healthcare workers) it's not controversial. I appreciate that people have different feelings, though. Have a great Friday.

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

This is what I always thought. I never understood this. If one really believes in the vax, shouldn't they feel safe? I mean, why does one have to push it on others if they are vaccinated if they feel it works. It should be a choice. If someone who is not vaccinated unfortunately gets it and passes away, it's on them, as that was their choice.

Vax the elderly or those who have co-morbids if they choose to, because, there is a good chance they won't live past any long term effects of taking it. The scale goes in their favor of taking it in that situation. But, they need to be real careful about loading kids and young teens up with it, as there could be long term medical implications as we don't have long term data at this point.

I mean, could a teenage girl have issues bearing children in 10-15 years? Could that teenager have some weird myocarditis or other freak condition going on in 15-20 yrs? Somebody going to get some unexplained autoimmune condition? Those are the questions.

My 18 year old niece got her second dose back in Sept and by Nov she was dealing w/ the following issues:
- severe fatigue
- weight lose
- bowel problems
- depression
- menstrual cycle went away completely and has not returned

Obviously the issues she's having could be cause from many things and maybe simply a coincidence it all began shortly after her second dose, or maybe not. She has had full CBC & CMP blood work done and everything but her blood sugar came back normal.

SOME experts are telling everyone to get vaccinated while some other experts are simply telling those who are risk are the ones who should get vaccinated. Good thing we have the freedom to listen to the experts who we believe are giving the best advice based on the data at hand. And the data is extremely clear. My desire is that we'd all focus more on getting healthy as a nation.

 

[okeefe4prez]

I find the extreme fear about this vaccine a little "outsized" though. I appreciate the fear and the hyperbole in the (mostly conservative) media about this, which is echoed on this board, but I like to look at actual risks.



In my world (of all healthcare workers) it's not controversial. I appreciate that people have different feelings, though. Have a great Friday.

On that first point, the bigger issue is that the fear for The Germ is massively outsized for the vast majority of the population. There are definitely people at risk and care should be exercised around them, but the risk for most of the population is very small. Institutions have painted themselves into a "Boy Who Cries Wolf" corner with this thing. They're acting like it is fucking smallpox that is going to kill a quarter of the population. Look, if this thing was smallpox I'd be stomping over people to be the first in line to get a vaccine. But when you take something that poses about a 1:40,000 chance of death to me then you unleash a massive propaganda shit sandwich that uses every technique from the Army Field Manual on psy-ops, that actually concerns me 1000x more than The Germ does in terms of personal risk level.

The vaccine was pretty controversial for healthcare workers around where I live. The departures were so great following the mandates that they basically had to adopt a fully permissive "religious waiver" for everyone who asked otherwise the hospitals would have been way below critical staffing levels.

 

[HawkGold]

On that first point, the bigger issue is that the fear for The Germ is massively outsized for the vast majority of the population. There are definitely people at risk and care should be exercised around them, but the risk for most of the population is very small. Institutions have painted themselves into a "Boy Who Cries Wolf" corner with this thing. They're acting like it is fucking smallpox that is going to kill a quarter of the population. Look, if this thing was smallpox I'd be stomping over people to be the first in line to get a vaccine. But when you take something that poses about a 1:40,000 chance of death to me then you unleash a massive propaganda shit sandwich that uses every technique from the Army Field Manual on psy-ops, that actually concerns me 1000x more than The Germ does in terms of personal risk level.

The vaccine was pretty controversial for healthcare workers around where I live. The departures were so great following the mandates that they basically had to adopt a fully permissive "religious waiver" for everyone who asked otherwise the hospitals would have been way below critical staffing levels.

Here is an issue though. I applied for a University job. That university still requires vaccines for COVID, but apply religious waivers. No way am I or many others going to relocate meaning selling/buying a home thinking that if they still require this, then how easily will they do away with waivers. I know I was a top candidate for the position.

 

[racerhawk]

On that first point, the bigger issue is that the fear for The Germ is massively outsized for the vast majority of the population. There are definitely people at risk and care should be exercised around them, but the risk for most of the population is very small. Institutions have painted themselves into a "Boy Who Cries Wolf" corner with this thing. They're acting like it is fucking smallpox that is going to kill a quarter of the population. Look, if this thing was smallpox I'd be stomping over people to be the first in line to get a vaccine. But when you take something that poses about a 1:40,000 chance of death to me then you unleash a massive propaganda shit sandwich that uses every technique from the Army Field Manual on psy-ops, that actually concerns me 1000x more than The Germ does in terms of personal risk level.

The vaccine was pretty controversial for healthcare workers around where I live. The departures were so great following the mandates that they basically had to adopt a fully permissive "religious waiver" for everyone who asked otherwise the hospitals would have been way below critical staffing levels.

The case fatality rate for Covid in the United States is 1.22%. More than 1 in 100. And risk of getting Covid is not remote. It's really common.

I pulled this from a family medicine journal a moment ago (very small number of total deaths associated with vaccines, majority in frail elderly):

Discussion​

COVID-19 vaccine is safe in younger groups. The majority of the reported deaths were in people aged 85 and older and vaccinated at long-term care facilities; these patients are frail older people with serious underlying health conditions such as dementia, hypertension, heart failure, COPD, diabetes, anemia, and fall. In addition, these vulnerable patients are polypharmacy users. Certain vaccine-disease and vaccine-drug interactions might have contributed to or have worsened health outcomes of those already vulnerable populations. It is essential to monitor the allergic reactions following the vaccination that mainly occur within a short period of time for preventable risks (5). However, the mortality rate of 53.4 per million following COVID-19 vaccination among long-term care facility residents during the study period was much lower compared to the 2019 monthly all-cause mortality rate of 0.3% among adults aged 65 years or older (6), or the 30-day all-cause mortality rate of 21.5% among US nursing home residents with COVID-19 (7). Therefore, our data suggest that the benefits of COVID-19 vaccines far outweigh the potential risks in older frail populations (e.g., long-term care facilities), and our findings do not support actions to exclude older adults from being vaccinated as the Norwegian government did. Continued monitoring of COVID-19 vaccination among the older population, particularly those with comorbidities and medications reported in this study, however, is warranted.


The vaccine was not too controversial for the vast majority of folks I worked with in Colorado, and now California. A very small percentage of people quit their jobs, or were terminated, for this issue. I'm talking a handful of people in a big organization. Similar to the required flu vaccinations (this is pretty universal), there is always a very small percentage of people that are super anti vax in general and probably need to work somewhere that isn't in health care. I imagine that in some states like SC, there might be more beliefs (usually political) that influence one's desire to get the vaccine.

There IS a massive problem for nursing, respiratory care, and other allied health professions right now. People are quitting , but not because of the vaccine. They're quitting because of the complete fatigue, burnout, and moral distress of having to operate in a world with COVID with zero gratitude from a fairly hostile patient population. That, and the moral distress of seeing a lot of death. Fortunately that is decreasing now. These days, people who get covid and die aren't vaccinated, with very little exception (I need to repeat that because it's lost in all of the right wing rhetoric). Many health care workers are just sick of it.




The reason why I mention the real issues for turnover with health care workers is because an outsider might see these poor staffing levels and assume it's somehow related to the vaccine. In my experience, it most certainly isn't. It could be true in rural SC, though. I don't know that area.

I'm obviously super pro vaccine. Hasn't harmed me one bit. I do play with trains all day now, and have a horn growing out of my forehead, but I'm fine.

I'll let all of you population health experts keep talking. I gotta run and do my job for a while.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

It's good to ask questions, and it's good to be skeptical. I appreciate your curiosity.

I find the extreme fear about this vaccine a little "outsized" though. I appreciate the fear and the hyperbole in the (mostly conservative) media about this, which is echoed on this board, but I like to look at actual risks.

For example, do y'all drink alcohol? I do. I love good bourbon. There is a ton of evidence that alcohol is not good for us. ETOH breaks down and acetaldehyde is a metabolite. It's classified as a carcinogen.

My point is that people take all sorts of risks with their health all of the time. I'm just suggesting that we put the vaccine's risk in perspective. . Part of that perspective is weighing it against the actual disease sequelae.

In my world (of all healthcare workers) it's not controversial. I appreciate that people have different feelings, though. Have a great Friday.

But you kind of play to my point or question. We understand the risks of ingesting alcohol or those who smoke. They make the choice to do it.

With the vaccine, we don't understand what could be long-term side effects/outcomes as we don't have any long-term data on this. We have long term data on smoking and alcohol use.

The other big difference is we do not have individuals pushing or forcing people to ingest alcohol or smoke. We have had that with the vaccinations. We've had situations where people were going to lose their jobs if they don't comply. This actually happen with a working acquaintance I knew at the Mayo Clinic. They set the mandate for their health system and he notified him he was resigning. Same thing was to happen at the university I am at, but I did get the vaccines #1 and #2 so my paperwork went through. There have been other threats for individuals who weren't willing to comply such as loss of revenue, etc..

Not sure we are comparing apples to apples with the choice to ingest substances vs having to take the vaccination.

You have a great weekend as well!

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Here is an issue though. I applied for a University job. That university still requires vaccines for COVID, but apply religious waivers. No way am I or many others going to relocate meaning selling/buying a home thinking that if they still require this, then how easily will they do away with waivers. I know I was a top candidate for the position.

Yep, religious waver was an option where I am at. Actually, I was concerned if they were going to start mandating the boosters. That is where I may have to draw the line or make a decision. I am not willing to load up on a foreign substance every 3 months. It is a guessing game to them and is trial and error for an effective vaccine.

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

1.21% overall mortality rate is only accurate for the data collected. And yes the experts can only look at the actual data collected however we all know the actual number is WAY lower. Heck, there were at least 6 positive tests in my household alone over the last 18 months that was never added to the record of Covid positive.

 

[HawkGold]

Yep, religious waver was an option where I am at. Actually, I was concerned if they were going to start mandating the boosters. That is where I may have to draw the line or make a decision. I am not willing to load up on a foreign subsstance. It is a guessing game to them and is trial and error for an effective vaccine.

I get it. I didn't want to start a job with a waiver as that just wouldn't be a good starting point. I'm kinda enjoying freelancing and had a good 2021...really good. 2022 is a bit more sparse in part to my traveling so much which I am enjoying. Yesterday I spent most of the day making my own financial reports for a client as the person I'm subcontracting for has terrible reports. A regular job can be much easier, but COVID has destroyed that for many. COVID and COVID policies.

I think if we've learned anything is not to trust just about anything, Govt or otherwise. Woke a lot of people up (pun intended).

I was getting too wound up about Ukraine (for good reasons) so I'm trying to ignore that too. Ukraine is somewhat the same. They are paying for not dealing with corruption which is ultimately what this is about. Maybe we are heading that way... or maybe it's always been there. I'm in a court case now where the judges are being political. In my state, judges run by party.

 

[Fryowa]

I won't argue with anyone on this topic Getting vaccinated protects others as well as yourself. It's the correct thing to do. Full stop.

I’m vaccinated and boosted. I believe it works.

But in no way should anyone be told, or pressured, or intimidated into taking this vaccine. That’s a personal choice. Full stop.

This virus is not measles, mumps, or rubella. It’s not polio. It cannot be eradicated no matter how hard anyone tries. It’s a (in fewer than 20% cases) more severe cold that almost everyone survives. Those who don’t survive it are unvaccinated and unhealthy people. That’s their choice.

If you want protection take the vaccine. Remove the “protecting others” wildcard by looking out for yourself if you want and taking risk if you don’t.

The portion of our citizenry who can’t take the vaccine is so small as to be statistical noise. Cold-hearted? Maybe. True? Absolutely.

The bottom line that you know as well as anyone is that by FAR and away, the people dying from COVID are in very advanced age, or have comorbidities such as obesity, diabetes, and COPD which are preventable and caused by life choices, not luck of the draw. It’s not my responsibility to protect people who don’t protect themselves and are cavalier in their diet and exercise choices. The virus doesn’t kill people in most cases. The virus and a McDouble with a side of Marlboros kills people. Not my problem.

 

[PCHawk]

They really screwed up with the message they sent people about how severe it is. It was easy to sniff out the bull shit for a lot of people. The problem is that a lot of people who knew they were being lied to probably went too extreme the other way. I might even be guilty of that myself.

Bill Maher talks a lot now about how misinformed Democrats are compared to Republicans. The statistics are pretty damning. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was something like 70% of democrats believe there is a 50% chance you will be hospitalized if you get covid. It blows me away that you can live through this for 2 years and still be that far off.

 

[PCHawk]

I’m vaccinated and boosted. I believe it works.

But in no way should anyone be told, or pressured, or intimidated into taking this vaccine. That’s a personal choice. Full stop.

This virus is not measles, mumps, or rubella. It’s not polio. It cannot be eradicated no matter how hard anyone tries. It’s a (in fewer than 20% cases) more severe cold that almost everyone survives. Those who don’t survive it are unvaccinated and unhealthy people. That’s their choice.

If you want protection take the vaccine. Remove the “protecting others” wildcard by looking out for yourself if you want and taking risk if you don’t.

The portion of our citizenry who can’t take the vaccine is so small as to be statistical noise. Cold-hearted? Maybe. True? Absolutely.

The bottom line that you know as well as anyone is that by FAR and away, the people dying from COVID are in very advanced age, or have comorbidities such as obesity, diabetes, and COPD which are preventable and caused by life choices, not luck of the draw. It’s not my responsibility to protect people who don’t protect themselves and are cavalier in their diet and exercise choices. The virus doesn’t kill people in most cases. The virus and a McDouble with a side of Marlboros kills people. Not my problem.

We are very similar in our thoughts on covid but you have had three shots and I never got one. At one point I was at a walk in place to get it and I ran out of time so left. Since then I've always had a reason to not pull the trigger on getting it, but that reason has changed a few times over the past year. Right now the main reason is my opinion on how fast it it becomes ineffective. I don’t want to continuously get shots so to me there isn't much point in even getting one.

That leads to my question to you. Will you continue to get boosters as they roll them out? If so, how close of a decision is it for you to continue to risk getting them (even tho it's a small risk) since you cleary think covid is a small risk to you? If you are 3 shots and done, why aren't you getting more? Because you're not concerned with the waining efficiency or because you've changed your mind on the risk/reward of it?

I'm just curious on your thoughts on all of that since our thoughts are so similar on covid yet we chose different routes with the vaccine. I feel like if I would have gotten the 2 vaccines I would have quit there and probably ended up having buyer's remorse. Like there was no point since the first 2 basically offer little to no protection now and covid will be around forever.

 

[racerhawk]

I’m vaccinated and boosted. I believe it works.

But in no way should anyone be told, or pressured, or intimidated into taking this vaccine. That’s a personal choice. Full stop.

This virus is not measles, mumps, or rubella. It’s not polio. It cannot be eradicated no matter how hard anyone tries. It’s a (in fewer than 20% cases) more severe cold that almost everyone survives. Those who don’t survive it are unvaccinated and unhealthy people. That’s their choice.

If you want protection take the vaccine. Remove the “protecting others” wildcard by looking out for yourself if you want and taking risk if you don’t.

The portion of our citizenry who can’t take the vaccine is so small as to be statistical noise. Cold-hearted? Maybe. True? Absolutely.

The bottom line that you know as well as anyone is that by FAR and away, the people dying from COVID are in very advanced age, or have comorbidities such as obesity, diabetes, and COPD which are preventable and caused by life choices, not luck of the draw. It’s not my responsibility to protect people who don’t protect themselves and are cavalier in their diet and exercise choices. The virus doesn’t kill people in most cases. The virus and a McDouble with a side of Marlboros kills people. Not my problem.

I understand your points. Thanks. My points previously, which were not well taken, were that nearly 100% of people dying now with Covid are unvaccinated.

I know and appreciate that people will refuse vaccinations and they are exercising their freedom to do so. I know that people understand that they are assuming risks for long covid and other complications, but have made the decision that maybe the vaccine is more risky.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

They really screwed up with the message they sent people about how severe it is. It was easy to sniff out the bull shit for a lot of people. The problem is that a lot of people who knew they were being lied to probably went too extreme the other way. I might even be guilty of that myself.

Bill Maher talks a lot now about how misinformed Democrats are compared to Republicans. The statistics are pretty damning. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was something like 70% of democrats believe there is a 50% chance you will be hospitalized if you get covid. It blows me away that you can live through this for 2 years and still be that far off.

It seems like Bill Maher has really shifted a bit more to the right on a few things I've heard him talk about recently. He was way off to the left on pretty much all subjects years ago and now has toned it down some. Either he is waking up or he is figuring out that it's a better avenue for his celebrity shitick to align a bit better with the right at this time. It could be that.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

We are very similar in our thoughts on covid but you have had three shots and I never got one. At one point I was at a walk in place to get it and I ran out of time so left. Since then I've always had a reason to not pull the trigger on getting it, but that reason has changed a few times over the past year. Right now the main reason is my opinion on how fast it it becomes ineffective. I don’t want to continuously get shots so to me there isn't much point in even getting one.

That leads to my question to you. Will you continue to get boosters as they roll them out? If so, how close of a decision is it for you to continue to risk getting them (even tho it's a small risk) since you cleary think covid is a small risk to you? If you are 3 shots and done, why aren't you getting more? Because you're not concerned with the waining efficiency or because you've changed your mind on the risk/reward of it?

I'm just curious on your thoughts on all of that since our thoughts are so similar on covid yet we chose different routes with the vaccine. I feel like if I would have gotten the 2 vaccines I would have quit there and probably ended up having buyer's remorse. Like there was no point since the first 2 basically offer little to no protection now and covid will be around forever.

The bold is me and why I'm not interested in getting the boosters every 3 months. I think a lot of our population is thinking the same and pretty much done with it and moving on.