Loved the latest Miller/Deace Podcast evaluating the Iowa program

Comparing Fran to Raveling to Davis to Alford to Lickliter is all nice, but the bottom line is that Iowa hasn't won a BT basketball championship in 40 years and hasn't won an outright championship in nearly 50 years. The rest is just like claiming your Gremlin is a better car that someone else's Pinto. Maybe, but does it really matter?
 
homes said:
Comparing Fran to Raveling to Davis to Alford to Lickliter is all nice, but the bottom line is that Iowa hasn't won a BT basketball championship in 40 years and hasn't won an outright championship in nearly 50 years. The rest is just like claiming your Gremlin is a better car that someone else's Pinto. Maybe, but does it really matter?
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That's one hell of a tough grading scale you've got there.
 
MelroseHawkins said:
In addition, it is quite a different game now compared to 1987. You've got players playing away from the hoop instead of inside outside, you've got 6'10" players shooting 3 pt shots when open, most everybody can dribble at a high level instead of a primary PG like it was 30 yrs ago. Youth sports are so much better that these players come up with an overall game and every kid grows up shooting the 3 as they like them the best. Youth teams usually play a 5 man out offense, spread the court pass and cut. A "true" motion offense is not usually ran now. It is all about spread, spacing, cutting and the outside shot.

Presses aren't as effective now as far as creating turnovers secondary to the better ball handling by all players. It is still ran some, but to mostly eat up the shot clock to leave a team 12 seconds left. You just don't see a full court hard press anymore like Tom Davis's teams played. Too many ball handlers on the floor and they would break it for layups 75% of the time.

Just my $0.02.
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It is a completely different game with how it’s being played and with the overall talent level of the players. It has decreased dramatically at the college level. Teams from the 1980s and early 1990s were far superior to the teams we see today outside.
 
ssckelley said:
That's one hell of a tough grading scale you've got there.
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Ok, maybe I should have used an Impala versus a Taurus, but my point is the same. (and Lickliter shouldn't be in any conversation - he was a complete disaster) But every Big Ten team, save for NW, has won at least 2 BT championships since Iowa last tied for the title in 1979. I'm not saying Iowa needs to be Michigan State, but they need to compete for championships every so often, something they haven't done for a long time. Maybe Fran can still get it done, something I hope happens, but Iowa's track record hasn't been good, and isn't happening this year.
 
homes said:
Ok, maybe I should have used an Impala versus a Taurus, but my point is the same. (and Lickliter shouldn't be in any conversation - he was a complete disaster) But every Big Ten team, save for NW, has won at least 2 BT championships since Iowa last tied for the title in 1979. I'm not saying Iowa needs to be Michigan State, but they need to compete for championships every so often, something they haven't done for a long time. Maybe Fran can still get it done, something I hope happens, but Iowa's track record hasn't been good, and isn't happening this year.
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To me the Big Ten Championship doesn't mean a ton. I'd rather see Iowa reach the Elite Eight or Final Four than win the Big Ten.
 
InGoodCo said:
I thought Deace laid it out where I am with things too. Fran's been decent, not great. He needs to make a run at something significant for fans to hold onto or it's time for a change. My bar was the NCAA this season, still is, the bar will raise next year even with the loss of Cook.
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You know I have taken notice :cool:
 
homes said:
Ok, maybe I should have used an Impala versus a Taurus, but my point is the same. (and Lickliter shouldn't be in any conversation - he was a complete disaster) But every Big Ten team, save for NW, has won at least 2 BT championships since Iowa last tied for the title in 1979. I'm not saying Iowa needs to be Michigan State, but they need to compete for championships every so often, something they haven't done for a long time. Maybe Fran can still get it done, something I hope happens, but Iowa's track record hasn't been good, and isn't happening this year.
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You mean they haven't won a championship in a long time. They just competed for one a few years ago.
 
ssckelley said:
To me the Big Ten Championship doesn't mean a ton. I'd rather see Iowa reach the Elite Eight or Final Four than win the Big Ten.
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Of course, but success in the Big Ten relates to success in the tournament. Not 1:1 but overall. The chances of Iowa making the Elite 8 from the top of the Big Ten, or at least competing for titles down the stretch, are connected. Izzo has been to the Elite 8 9 times, the Final 4 7 times. In 5 of those 7 years, MSU won the title. In the other 2, MSU was 2nd and 3rd. Since 2005, OSU has been to the Final 4 twice, both in years they won the BT title, and in 12-13, they went to the Elite 8 after finishing 2nd in the BT. Since the late 80s, Illinois has been to the Elite 8 4 times, and won the BT title 3 of those years, and finished 2nd in the other. Wisconsin has been to the Elite 8 3 times since 01-02, having won 1 BT title, and finishing 2nd and 3rd in the other two. I didn't go through every BT team, but there is a correlation between success in the BT and success in the tournament. If you want to assert that winning the BT is not a guarantee that the team will make the Elite 8, you win. Personally, I'd like to see some more BT championship banners in CHA because I think I'd also see more Elite 8 banners as well.
 
Northside Hawk said:
Just saw ESPN's bracketology and they STILL have three teams who are below us in the standings and absolutely in free fall (Indiana, Ohio State and Nebraska) getting into the dance. We would almost have to lose eight of ten or nine ten to fall below all three of those teams.

KenPom LOVES Nebraska. Still has them 22nd, well above Iowa. Then again, Nebraska is ranked about ninety spots above us in adjusted D.
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Nebraska beat the crap out of smaller schools in their non conference which bolstered their net efficiency even with the "adjusted" part Kenpom adds in based on opponent strength. That's why the computer rankings loved them so much early on. They are finally starting to come back to earth after losing 6 of their last 8.
 
homes said:
Comparing Fran to Raveling to Davis to Alford to Lickliter is all nice, but the bottom line is that Iowa hasn't won a BT basketball championship in 40 years and hasn't won an outright championship in nearly 50 years. The rest is just like claiming your Gremlin is a better car that someone else's Pinto. Maybe, but does it really matter?
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"Claiming your Gremlin is a better can than someone else's Pinto!" That line is classic!

How about this variation? "Both Gremlins and Pintos go fast downhill."
 
deanvogs said:
No way. Even if you take out Mr. Davis's first 4 years (Ravs' recruits), Mr. Davis made the NCAA 6 times in the next 9 years, winning 7 NCAA game and made a sweet 16. He had a team that was a 4 seed, a 5 seed, a 6 seed in those 6 NCAA appearances.

Franny hasn't come close to this kind of production.
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I was going to post something like this. Even without Raveling's recruits, Mr. Davis still had some teams that were better than anything Fran has put on the floor so far. Fran has had a pair of 7 seeds and an 11 seed in the play-in game.

To this point, Fran and Alford is a better comp than Fran and Davis. Alford and Fran have both had 3 NCAA's in 8 years. Fran may add a 4th this year.

Overall/Conference winning percentages:

Davis: 66% / 54.7%
Alford: 58.9% / 47.7%
Fran: 57.4% / 47.3%

Mr. Davis was a good coach. Better than anyone we've had since IMO. Just wasn't any better recruiting than any of those guys either. Well, except for Lickliter.

I'd still give a slight edge to Fran over Alford, especially given the mess he inherited from the Lick. And the Big Ten is better now than when Alford was our coach.
 
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trj said:
Not so sure about that. Fran makes one deep run in the tournament and he gets Tom Davis, Lute Olsen type status.

Maybe that's indictment on Iowa basketball in general. The NCAA tournament is a crap shoot. Fran could get a 6 or a 7 seed in this year's tournament, get to the elite 8 and you are singing a different tune. That scenario is plausible now more than ever. Yes, a blue blood will win the national title. But it is easier for non blue bloods to make a deep run in the tournament.
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There are too many if's, and's and but's in that post for me. *IF* Fran does these things, then I'll give him credit for it. Until then, it's all hypothetical.
 
InGoodCo said:
I thought Deace laid it out where I am with things too. Fran's been decent, not great. He needs to make a run at something significant for fans to hold onto or it's time for a change. My bar was the NCAA this season, still is, the bar will raise next year even with the loss of Cook.
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Totally fair and I concur. The bar should be raised going into next yr with (not an impossibility of him coming back anyway but highly unlikely) or without Cook next yr too. Garza and JW being another year older, JBo, Moss. Pretty much every main guy will be back . Most likely trading out Cook for Nunge. I forgot about Baer momentarily we'll be losing him too. His intangibles will be tough to replace I think but not impossible.
I think the newbies being PM and Tousant will have minimal impact right away. PM unless he puts on some weight just won't be able to play significant mins and Tousant will have CM and JBo and Moss to compete for time with. Plus that CJ Fredrick who's redshirting this year. So if he does make an impact it's either due to injuries/attrition or he's dang good and better than advertised.
 
Hawknigh said:
"Claiming your Gremlin is a better can than someone else's Pinto!" That line is classic!

How about this variation? "Both Gremlins and Pintos go fast downhill."
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My sister had a Pinto back in high school. Some weird creamy orange color. I refused to ride in it. :cool:
 
But to respond more directly to the podcast.. I found myself thinking recently that Fran had gotten the program back to about where Davis had it, or at least close.. But somehow it hasn't quite felt the same. I couldn't put a finger on it.

I think Deace articulated pretty well what it is that I've been feeling when he basically said it was "Mr. Davis level without the good stuff". Nailed it.
 
1977Hawkeye said:
But to respond more directly to the podcast.. I found myself thinking recently that Fran had gotten the program back to about where Davis had it, or at least close.. But somehow it hasn't quite felt the same. I couldn't put a finger on it.

I think Deace articulated pretty well what it is that I've been feeling when he basically said it was "Mr. Davis level without the good stuff". Nailed it.
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And one other thing to compare Fran and Davis on........(which is stating the obvious again) Davis had Iowa in the Big Dance every year with exception of 4 years out of 13 (and 2 of those years still made the post season with NIT).....Fran had to dig the program out of the ground.....but only 3 tourney appearance (probably another this year) in his 9 years. 3 NITS for Fran. An average year for Mr. Davis was the NCAA tournament. A good year for Fran has been making the NCAA tournament. Not exactly the same footing or feeling there either.

The ceiling for Mr. Davis was the Elite 8.
The ceiling for Fran, thus far, has been the round of 32.
 
tksirius said:
The two main gripes with Mr. Davis were his substitution patterns and recruiting (effort).
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Mr. Davis was gutted by the death of Chris Street.

He had reached his zenith, but uncertain why he was jettisoned and someone like Fran and Kirk seem to have an open ended check?
 
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