Point Guard

[NikeHawk21]

I did not research their stats to make an argument. I researched their stats because the assists/to stuff you tried to pass of was nonsense and I knew it was nonsense.
I may not have watched Virginia play much but I've seen them play enough over the years, to know that what kind of offenses Bennet runs and how he uses his guards. He's the anti-McCaffery. He wants 2 or even 3 PGs on the floor at the same time. So, you go ahead and try to single out the 1 guard with the worst assist/to ratio to try and make some ridiculous comparison. Be my guest.

The only player that matters is the PG, and their primary PG does not break down defenses off the dribble. Despite that he’s still a good player and they are a very good team. Comprehend?

 

[InGoodCo]

JBo IS a point guard. and he IS playing out of position because he isn't quick enough to, or have the handles to be a higher level point guard in the B1G. That's just the truth of the matter.

Is that why he's 2nd in the conference in assist and avg 5.4 assist to 2.1 turnovers a game? Because he's not good enough to play in the B1G?

 

[PCHawk]

I think it's dumb to say someone isn't a true point guard becasue they can't guard point guards very well. He can't guard 2 guards very well either so how is he a 2? Also Jok sucked at guarding 2s so he wasn't a shooting guard I guess.

 

[PCHawk]

JBo IS a point guard. and he IS playing out of position because he isn't quick enough to, or have the handles to be a higher level point guard in the B1G. That's just the truth of the matter.

I don't think you have to be "high level" at a position to be "true". Moss is a true shooting guard who doesn't have the ability to play it at a high level.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Is that why he's 2nd in the conference in assist and avg 5.4 assist to 2.1 turnovers a game? Because he's not good enough to play in the B1G?

alright. watch him getting trapped and see how easy it is to get him to pick up his dribble. watch him trying to play defense and how wide open our lane is because he can't stay in front of B1G level pg's. And, while you're at it, how many of those 5.4 ast's are in fast break offense or half court offense and while he is actually playing the SG with Daily on the floor?

 

[ssckelley]

Iowa needs SOMEONE that can break down the defense and get you a bucket when you need it. That doesn't need to be your pg although often times it is. Last year Jok was that guy. 2 years ago it was JU. BF that it was AW. RDM before that. No one on this team has that ability. That's about to change when JW arrives. Go Hawks. Oh, and heAl that foot JBo. Healthy JBo is an excellent pg. He even d'd up Mason on Tu. Tight man D with a bad wheel is really tough.

Yes, that would help on the offensive side of the ball.

That's not a "true PG"... that's what you want in your PG. A true PG is Jon Stockton. I'd encourage anyone to argue that fact. If we had Jon Stockton on this team as a sophomore, he'd be averaging less then Jordan in every category of the game and would be getting railed because we needed a scoring PG. While I agree that he can't consistently break down an opposing team off the dribble, that's not the roll of a PG. A true PG runs the offense and his primary job is to facilitate scoring opportunities for his/her team or sometimes themselves. It's hard to argue that Jordan doesn't do that. His #'s certainly indicate that. There's more then one way to skin a cat and if Iowa had better play from 2 and 3 spot you wouldn't complain about Jordan.

I certainly hope you are not comparing JB to Jon Stockton. I'll take a young Jon Stockton any day.

I hope you guys don't think that I'm saying white guys can't play the point. I was a big fan of Gesell.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

I don't think you have to be "high level" at a position to be "true". Moss is a true shooting guard who doesn't have the ability to play it at a high level.

alright, that's fair PC. you're right "true" doesn't define level of expertise. But a true pg isn't necessarily good or at the level needed.

 

[Hawk5656]

I don't think you have to be "high level" at a position to be "true". Moss is a true shooting guard who doesn't have the ability to play it at a high level.

For what we needed him to be Moss was a clear recruiting miss.

 

[InGoodCo]

For what we needed him to be Moss was a clear recruiting miss.

Yes, that would help on the offensive side of the ball.



I certainly hope you are not comparing JB to Jon Stockton. I'll take a young Jon Stockton any day.

I hope you guys don't think that I'm saying white guys can't play the point. I was a big fan of Gesell.

I'm definitely not comparing him to John Stockton- at all. I said Stockton was a true PG... but Stockton didn't have even close to Jordan's #'s as a sophomore and he played 39 minutes a game at a mid major.

 

[InGoodCo]

For what we needed him to be Moss was a clear recruiting miss.

as a sophomore, he certainly hasn't taken a step you'd hope. I'll wait and see how he pans out. If we judged all the guys we call "hits" by the sophomore years, we'd have very few "hits".

 

[ssckelley]

I'm definitely not comparing him to John Stockton- at all. I said Stockton was a true PG... but Stockton didn't have even close to Jordan's #'s as a sophomore and he played 39 minutes a game in a mid major.

Which numbers? The only numbers that are really better than Stockton's was free throw percentage. Jordan does score 2.8 points per game more but takes a LOT more shots and hits a much lower percentage of them.

I still don't get the point you are trying to make but JB is not going to be a John Stockton.

 

[mopkins]

For what we needed him to be Moss was a clear recruiting miss.

Moss isn't what I thought he'd be at this point either, but if you put his 2nd-year college stats side-by-side with Jok and Marble you'd actually find them quite comparable. Here are the 3 side by side with names taken out

11.5 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 39% 3pt, 30 minutes
11 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, 39% 3pt, 24 minutes
7 points, 1 assist, 3 rebounds, 34% 3pt, 20 minutes

Again I think it goes back to this years team not having any productive upperclassmen. When Marble and Jok were Sophomores they had junior/senior leaders who were the focal points (Gatens, White/Uthoff/Gesell/etc). Most of Fran's players don't come right out of the gate swinging hard. This year his young guys are being forced to.

One massive problem this year is Fran's Junior/Senior recruiting classes are so weak that these young guys are getting exposed before they're ready.

 

[trj]

This thread is making my head hurt. Of the top 8 NBA point guards only Chris Paul is considered a “true” point guard by the old school definition anyway. Trae Young jacked up 39 shots in one game for Oklahoma this season.

It is okay to have a shoot first point guard. Yes, dribble penetration makes things easier, but you can get the same results with spacing and ball movement. Watch Golden State or San Antionio when they are on top of their game the spacing and ball movement is incredible. Parker/Curry don’t need to get into the lane to create for others.

 

[trj]

Moss isn't what I thought he'd be at this point either, but if you put his 2nd-year college stats side-by-side with Jok and Marble you'd actually find them quite comparable. Here are the 3 side by side with names taken out

11.5 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 39% 3pt, 30 minutes
11 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, 39% 3pt, 24 minutes
7 points, 1 assist, 3 rebounds, 34% 3pt, 20 minutes

Again I think it goes back to this years team not having any productive upperclassmen. When Marble and Jok were Sophomores they had junior/senior leaders who were the focal points (Gatens, White/Uthoff/Gesell/etc). Most of Fran's players don't come right out of the gate swinging hard. This year his young guys are being forced to.

One massive problem this year is Fran's Junior/Senior recruiting classes are so weak that these young guys are getting exposed before they're ready.

Many people including myself thought Moss was the key to the season. I will admit I automatically assumed growth and development from Moss. It has made me apprehensive on Nunge. I can’t say he will just get better. I hope he does, but I just can’t assume it the way I did with Moss.

 

[mopkins]

This thread is making my head hurt. Of the top 8 NBA point guards only Chris Paul is considered a “true” point guard by the old school definition anyway. Trae Young jacked up 39 shots in one game for Oklahoma this season.

It is okay to have a shoot first point guard. Yes, dribble penetration makes things easier, but you can get the same results with spacing and ball movement. Watch Golden State or San Antionio when they are on top of their game the spacing and ball movement is incredible. Parker/Curry don’t need to get into the lane to create for others.

its true that spacing, screens, and ball movement can open up an offense, but when your Point Guard is the main ball handler and teams are in his face 30 feet from the basket because they don't fear his dribble penetration, it really slows things down, clogs things up, and leads to a whole bunch of turnovers.

 

[InGoodCo]

Which numbers? The only numbers that are really better than Stockton's was free throw percentage. Jordan does score 2.8 points per game more but takes a LOT more shots and hits a much lower percentage of them.

I still don't get the point you are trying to make but JB is not going to be a John Stockton.

Then you didn't read anything I posted. Literally. I said, Stockton is a true PG. Everyone wants a true PG and not Jordan cause it's en vogue to say and they heard there buddy say it on twitter. If Iowa had a Stockton people would be railing on him because he can't score and isn't a threat to score and would be saying "Imagine if Iowa had a guy who could keep defenses honest and could shoot from the outside". Ya can't win.

oh and I dunno where you're getting your stats, I get em from sports reference.

Stockton's sophomore year - 39 minutes per game, 5 assists, 3.1 turnovers and 11.2 pts per game in WCAC.
Jordan's sophomore year - 31.5 minutes per game, 5.4 assist, 2.2 turnovers and 14.0 pts per game in B1G.

 

[mopkins]

Many people including myself thought Moss was the key to the season. I will admit I automatically assumed growth and development from Moss. It has made me apprehensive on Nunge. I can’t say he will just get better. I hope he does, but I just can’t assume it the way I did with Moss.

I expected more as well from Moss this year, but I'd also argue that he HAS grown and developed. If you compare last year to this year, his minutes have gone up by 6, his points have gone up by 5, his assists have gone up by 1, his rebounds have gone up .5, his 3 point shooting is up, and his free throw shooting is up.

He hasn't regressed by any measure...he actually has improved from last year. Just maybe not as much as we wanted.

 

[trj]

its true that spacing, screens, and ball movement can open up an offense, but when your Point Guard is the main ball handler and teams are in his face 30 feet from the basket because they don't fear his dribble penetration, it really slows things down, clogs things up, and leads to a whole bunch of turnovers.

That’s my point you don’t need to have your pg get into the lane to create for others. It is easier, but not a necessity. You can initiate offense at the top of the key.

 

[trj]

I expected more as well from Moss this year, but I'd also argue that he HAS grown and developed. If you compare last year to this year, his minutes have gone up by 6, his points have gone up by 5, his assists have gone up by 1, his rebounds have gone up .5, his 3 point shooting is up, and his free throw shooting is up.

He hasn't regressed by any measure...he actually has improved from last year. Just maybe not as much as we wanted.

Maybe it is unfair and I hope I am wrong. This season has made me realize what Moss is. He is a role player on a decent team he is coming off the bench, playing 12 to15 minutes a game. I want to be wrong..... If he is a late bloomer you can be the first one to call me out on it.

 

[InGoodCo]

Moss isn't what I thought he'd be at this point either, but if you put his 2nd-year college stats side-by-side with Jok and Marble you'd actually find them quite comparable. Here are the 3 side by side with names taken out

11.5 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 39% 3pt, 30 minutes
11 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, 39% 3pt, 24 minutes
7 points, 1 assist, 3 rebounds, 34% 3pt, 20 minutes

Again I think it goes back to this years team not having any productive upperclassmen. When Marble and Jok were Sophomores they had junior/senior leaders who were the focal points (Gatens, White/Uthoff/Gesell/etc). Most of Fran's players don't come right out of the gate swinging hard. This year his young guys are being forced to.

One massive problem this year is Fran's Junior/Senior recruiting classes are so weak that these young guys are getting exposed before they're ready.

Mopkins ya beautiful beast, you basically just reinforced what I've been saying on here til I was blue in the face. 10,000 likes.