Oh Jesus, really?????????????????? (see duplicate thread soon to be posted)

HawkGold said:
You do not do it with guns drawn. If it had been your kid I can guarantee you would feel differently. Since the subject was preoccupied, they should have approached the subject from different angles out of the line of fire. This is serious business. Someone getting killed or wounded that is innocent isn't justified to catch the criminal who at this point had never discharged. Does anyone know if the real robber ever presented an actual weapon? Even if so, would if it had been a male who was dressed in the same out fit but of the race of your child, how would you feel? An officer (4 in this case) presenting a weapon that could be accidentally discharged likely was not yet warranted. Presenting a weapon in a threat of force is a serious action. Maybe you've missed the "accidental" police shootings. The officers should be suspended while an external investigation is done. Were the guns unholstered or actually aimed? We do not live in a police state. They are to protect and serve. Not scare and intimidate. There are a number of things that could have been done differently. Were their other people in the vicinity?

Pulling a gun should be the last response, not the first.
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The problem is that often times it can't be determined the individual is innocent after the fact. Your "they should have's...." and assuming the subject was preoccupied leaves A LOT of wiggle room and the police aren't trained to assess wiggle room when dealing with potential subjects. People now more than ever are more aggressive verbally and physically with police. More than EVER and younger. These young guys have no clue & often react wrong. The police have to assume everyone is carrying a weapon when approaching, otherwise they will end up dead or maimed. Many Civilians are indeed carrying weapons in this day and age. I wouldn't want their jobs.
 
FCAS said:
So when exactly is it OK for the police to draw their guns? Is it always a clear cut answer?


A lot more than you think, based on my conversations with my brother, who has served as a warden.
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I thought the same thing. They will try to blend in as much as they can.
 
dwghawk said:
And if it were your son or daughter that was the PO and he went strolling up to a bank robbery suspect like he was checking out a litter bug complaint and the guy pulled a gun and shot him or her. How would you feel about self preservation police tactics then? I got news for some of you people. When the police show up at something as serious as this. They come to win. And when people turn a simple police confrontation like a traffic stop into a serious confrontation. Just remember the police are trained to use over whelming force if needed to get it under control. Like I said they are trained to win not lose in all situations. You are probably one of those people who think when a person tries to use physical force to over power a PO. The rest of the officers at the scene are supposed to stand and watch a fellow officer fight it out on his own. Ain't gonna happen. A person who feels the need to fight a police officer is going to get over powered by any means necessary.
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Yep, well stated.
 
HawkGold said:
I've ridden with a lot with an officer. If you can't cut being an officer to protect and serve then get out. The responsibility is not and should not be on someone to react correctly when confronted with an gun due to the element of surprise. You do not know how you would react as the victim in this case. You really don't. Proper police response should have been officers from several angles. They should not be playing "chase the bad guy". You should be lobbying local police and authorities for a proper response so it doesn't happen again, lest it be you.

So if Faith had turned and moved the phone forward in a reaction it would be OK to shoot? Wow. You live in a pretty idealistic world. The police screwed up.
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No, but I can definitely understand why it happens. In the past, every individual wasn't carrying around a phone with their noses stuck into them or in their pockets that they'd go to retrieve. Now, everyone has them and they unfortunately can look like guns, especially at night. I wouldn't want to be an officer and try to determine what a subject was carrying. What if they grabbed their phone & raised it up. An officer could take that as a threat. I don't like it, but again, I understand it.
 
This isn't intended at all toward what happened with Faith, but why do we need to put so much of this on the officers and their training. Whatever happened to respecting authority and everyone else for that matter. I don't think the problem lies so much with the police, but rather the fact that we've gone from respecting the badge to spitting on it.

Sure there are bad cops out there just like there's bad human beings out there. IMO the focus needs to be more about fixing what seems to be broken and less about pointing the fingers at the individuals (whether cops or criminals) that are driving the wedge. Respect goes along way and I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a country where the military or the citizens are responsible for maintaining order.
 
dwghawk said:
And if they were all spread out and coming in a different angles as you say and he did pull a gun and start shooting, then what? Do you have any idea why they stay in a group?
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God forbid, they'd all approach from an angle where the innocent man could see them coming from.
 
I'm not going to second guess why the police handled this the way they did, I wasn't there. I do know if they would have done it by the book they would have established a barricade with their cars and challenged the suspect from there, with guns drawn. Especially one they thought was armed. You know like a bank robbery suspect. I don't really care how they came by that description. They thought they had a suspect to check out. I do know you don't spread out and run the risk of firing when one of your fellow officers could have walked right into your line of fire. You don't get in a position to have an armed suspect start shooting in all directions with bullets flying everywhere.
 
kicker22 said:
This isn't intended at all toward what happened with Faith, but why do we need to put so much of this on the officers and their training. Whatever happened to respecting authority and everyone else for that matter. I don't think the problem lies so much with the police, but rather the fact that we've gone from respecting the badge to spitting on it.

Sure there are bad cops out there just like there's bad human beings out there. IMO the focus needs to be more about fixing what seems to be broken and less about pointing the fingers at the individuals (whether cops or criminals) that are driving the wedge. Respect goes along way and I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a country where the military or the citizens are responsible for maintaining order.
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I'll think like you do, when the "good cops" stop shielding the "bad cops" from accountability.
 
bcscott said:
I wonder if this will affect recruiting? I mean I don't know if a lot of players wan't to go to a place where their safety is a concern and things are pretty heated with the Police across the country. Terrible move by the Iowa City Police Department.
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It's one incident, in which no one was hurt.

Recruits coming from the rougher areas of Chicago, East St Louis, Dallas.... <insert any large city her>, are going to be intimidated in Iowa City?
 
AreWeThereYet said:
Hi, Mom & Dad... Guess what happened to me today? Parents pass out... have to be revived by an EMT.
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Yeah,
HawkGold said:
No, when the gun is drawn, the chances of an accidental shooting go up. Without even thinking much about it I can think of 2 high profile cases where a black male was shot accidentally by police. One was recently in Florida and the other in Oklahoma. The officers responded the same when asked the question, "why did you shoot?".. The answer, "I don't know".

In addition, the emotional scarring that young man will suffer will last a lifetime.

The militarization tactics of police has got to stop. How many robbers are going to be walking around looking at their phone with earbuds on minutes after the robbery without changing clothes first. The answer is only the mentally challenged. Being mentally challenged should not warrant a death sentence. This isn't WW2 era Germany.
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HG, when I was in high school I worked for a pizza joint. One Sunday night, I was robbed at gun point; with the guns barrel less than an inch from my nose. I'm sure Faith with be fine. I can promise you I would have loved to have had the police be there.

You are doing exactly what is wrong with this country, you are sensationalizing the purported facts of what happened and drawing a conclusion that Faith, himself, didn't even draw. Faith thanked the police for treating the situation professionally.

So, let me ask you. Let's say the police did see the real bank robber but decided that they couldn't be 100% sure it was the real robber, so they didn't approach him. Then let's say the bank robber goes to another bank, or grocery store or pizza joint, tries to rob it and winds up shooting someone and killing them. Now, let's say that someone is someone you know or love. Wouldn't you wish the police had approached the suspect that matched the description?
 
FCAS said:
It's one incident, in which no one was hurt.

Recruits coming from the rougher areas of Chicago, East St Louis, Dallas.... <insert any large city her>, are going to be intimidated in Iowa City?
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I can picture many black athletes saying "iowa city and risk getting shot by the cops
FCAS said:
It's one incident, in which no one was hurt.

Recruits coming from the rougher areas of Chicago, East St Louis, Dallas.... <insert any large city her>, are going to be intimidated in Iowa City?
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I don't think they will be intimidated, but I could see a black recruit saying that he doesn't want to get shot over a case of mistaken identity so he won't go play in Iowa City.
 
tksirius said:
13754363_10210363565595704_6553623927807337523_n.jpg
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We also live in a world in which the police officer who shoots a suspect in the line of duty isn't allowed to state what his side of the story is before the videos hit CNN and MSNBC and protests, riots, and police assassinations start.
 
Real story. White teenage girls is brutally raped. Has ptsd. Later girl is stopped/startled by a police officer. Begins to run. Grabbed by officer. Girl fights officer and girl arrested. Suppose the football player had ptsd. Outcome much different. Supposed he'd been from an inner city and had been involved in a gang at one point or had gun pulled on him before and beaten/robbed.

Said football player was the one stopped. Startled and sees gun pointed at him. Reacts strongly fearing for life. Different outcome.

Police actions of pulling gun should be under threat of imminent public risk such as identifiable gun. Should not be to minimize risk to confronting officer at the potential demise of innocent people. Iowa City has a large police presence to call upon.

About being in the group the funniest thing I ever saw riding with an officer was a suspected suicide by gun. The person as locked in a garage. They thought she was dead inside. The proceeded to break down the door. Hearing them, she swung it open aggressively, surprising the officers which included local police, deputy sheriffs, and couple of Iowa State police. The State police stood back from the door, unlike the other officers. Many local officers/sheriffs deputies aren't known for eating light on the job. It looked like about 6 kegs of beer rolling/spinning around on the ground as they "tried" to dive, bellies and all. The state officers and the lady stood their looking on like....What the.....!

They assumed she had a gun and was dangerous. She had no gun. At least they didn't have guns drawn. Promise you that State Police and FBI would have done things in IC differently.
 
bcscott said:
I can picture many black athletes saying "iowa city and risk getting shot by the cops

I don't think they will be intimidated, but I could see a black recruit saying that he doesn't want to get shot over a case of mistaken identity so he won't go play in Iowa City.
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Well, let's agree to disagree then. I don't think there's going to be a large number of recruits that will feel that the Iowa City cops present any more of a threat than any other city's cops.
 
I just want to ask everybody here. Who were they suppose to detain and investigate if they can't stop a person who fits the description they had to go on at the time and in a reasonable distance from the crime? And it was actually in the immediate vicinity from the crime. They had an obligation as police officers to detain him under reasonable suspicion.
Reasonable suspicion is the legal standard by which a police officer has the right to briefly detain a suspect for investigatory purposes and frisk the outside of their clothing for weapons, but not drugs. While many factors contribute to a police officer’s level of authority in a given situation, the reasonable suspicion standard requires facts or circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a suspect has, is, or will commit a crime.
While reasonable suspicion does not require hard evidence, it does require more than a hunch. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually insignificant, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion. For example, police may have reasonable suspicion to detain someone who fits a description of a criminal suspect, a suspect who drops a suspicious object after seeing police, or a suspect in a high crime area who runs after seeing police.

And hindsight info doesn't count. It is what the officers have to go on at the time. The Supreme Court says so.

As far as tactics go, none of us were there. We have no idea why they approached him the way they did. As far as having their guns drawn. I can tell you when you approach a robbery suspect you are foolish if you don't have your gun out. If you know a police officer that will tell you any different he is the officer who needs more training. And I don't know a single police officer that would accept not having your gun drawn while approaching a suspected bank robber and would be hesitant to work with an officer who wouldn't. I sorry to say that Faith was a suspect at the time. Those officers did what they thought was right and had good reason to detain him.

Besides he was more than okay with what the officers did. So what's the problem.
 
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HawkGold said:
You do not do it with guns drawn. If it had been your kid I can guarantee you would feel differently. Since the subject was preoccupied, they should have approached the subject from different angles out of the line of fire. This is serious business. Someone getting killed or wounded that is innocent isn't justified to catch the criminal who at this point had never discharged. Does anyone know if the real robber ever presented an actual weapon? Even if so, would if it had been a male who was dressed in the same out fit but of the race of your child, how would you feel? An officer (4 in this case) presenting a weapon that could be accidentally discharged likely was not yet warranted. Presenting a weapon in a threat of force is a serious action. Maybe you've missed the "accidental" police shootings. The officers should be suspended while an external investigation is done. Were the guns unholstered or actually aimed? We do not live in a police state. They are to protect and serve. Not scare and intimidate. There are a number of things that could have been done differently. Were their other people in the vicinity?

Pulling a gun should be the last response, not the first.
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<<Pulling a gun should be the last response, not the first>>

When YOU get to go make "the visit" to a police widow/er, you can always comfort them with that thought.

"Hey, s/he did it the right way. S/he didn't draw down on the scumbag who shot her/him in cold blood. High five!"
 
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