Iowa @ Iowa State (Basketball)

[sportstalent]

Yeah I mean the last time the Hawks came into Ames and played a relatively new lineup it went pretty well for them didn't it? It isn't like they were down by 20+ at halftime. Oh that's right they were. What was ISU's starting lineup for that game? Two returning players and three first year players.

G - Christopherson (senior)
G - Allen (first year transfer)
G - Babb (first year transfer)
F - Ejim (sophomore)
F - White (first year transfer)

ISU's starting lineup this year will consist of at least two returning players in Ejim (senior) and Niang (sophomore). My guess would be early in the year another senior will be starting in Palo. So that is more experience in the starting lineup than 2011-2012 matchup. Yeah though I'm pretty fearful the NIT power Hawks are going to roll into one of the toughest road environments in the country and embarrass Iowa State.

Post of the year...well not really.
Iowa has a much better roster top to bottom today than they did two years ago, I am not sure ISU does today.

Who was Iowa's starting five in that game and compare it to today? Bench, Iowa didn't have one period, they do today.

It is going to be a good game, but what happened two years ago experience wise on both sides means nothing in this game as some of the best players (Gesell/Niang) were still in high school.

ISU is not one of the toughest road environments in the country, it is tough when they play Iowa and Kansas.

 

[ForeverIowan]

Stewo, I think this year you will start to see the difference between building a program on a solid foundation of hard recruiting and solid individuals and trying to cobble together one each year with transfers who don't quite fit in other programs. I give The Mayor about two more years before his lack of effective recruiting and long-term planning catches up with him and he decides to move to the NBA. Once again in college hoops, this is a Hawkeye state.

Note the date and book it.

You do know Fred has recruited better freshman classes than Fran and it isn't really even close? What in the world are you talking about!

 

[sportstalent]

You do know Fred has recruited better freshman classes than Fran and it isn't really even close? What in the world are you talking about!

There isn't as big a gap as you want to believe.

Remember, you are banking on this 2013 class to be really good, I think Morris will not be a great and borderline good. Shooters like Thomas are either Stauskas or Oglesby, time will tell.

Sherron-Dorsey Walker could be great
Niang is for real

Fran has gotten Marble, White (both All-BIG caliber), Basabe, Gesell, Woodbury, Clemmons and Jok.
The jury is out on Jok, but the rest I think have shown some pretty good things to date.
Looking at rankings only yeah you have something of an argument, but the you have a guy like Bubu Palo that I don't believe was even ranked a 3*, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ForeverIowan]

Post of the year...well not really.
Iowa has a much better roster top to bottom today than they did two years ago, I am not sure ISU does today.

Who was Iowa's starting five in that game and compare it to today? Bench, Iowa didn't have one period, they do today.

It is going to be a good game, but what happened two years ago experience wise on both sides means nothing in this game as some of the best players (Gesell/Niang) were still in high school.

ISU is not one of the toughest road environments in the country, it is tough when they play Iowa and Kansas.

I never said it wouldn't be a good game. I expect it to be a very tight game. Of course Iowa has a better team than their last appearance in Ames. These posts act like ISU has zero experience returning. Niang and Ejim make up one of the best frontcourts in their conference. While I don't see both of them making the All Big 12 team it wouldn't surprise me if either of the two do. New players: Hopes are extremely high for Kane. Averaged 15+ ppg each of his first three years. Matt Thomas was a top 50 recruit etc...Pretty similar to their 2011-2012 team that was a 9 seed in the tourney. Hilton isn't one of the toughest road environments in the country? Get over yourself. They had the second longest active home winning streak in the country and it still should be going if not for the KU debacle. To think an Iowa team that played in the NIT last year is going to come in and roll ISU in Ames is just ridiculous. The same Iowa team that lost in Lincoln, NE with 1,000 fans in the stands only months ago.

 

[ForeverIowan]

There isn't as big a gap as you want to believe.

Remember, you are banking on this 2013 class to be really good, I think Morris will not be a great and borderline good. Shooters like Thomas are either Stauskas or Oglesby, time will tell.

Sherron-Dorsey Walker could be great
Niang is for real

Fran has gotten Marble, White (both All-BIG caliber), Basabe, Gesell, Woodbury, Clemmons and Jok.
The jury is out on Jok, but the rest I think have shown some pretty good things to date.
Looking at rankings only yeah you have something of an argument, but the you have a guy like Bubu Palo that I don't believe was even ranked a 3*, correct me if I am wrong.

First off, Bubu Palo was a walk-on who earned a scholarship. He doesn't really count as a recruit.

I mean you can't refer to Marble, White, Basabe, Clemmons or Jok as big time recruits. Did Marble and White turn into solid players? Yes. Were they big time recruits? Not even close. They were all three star players and collectively had zero impressive offers other than Iowa. Fran had to throw his young recruits into the fire early and it is looking like it may start to pay dividends. Were about to see what Fred's can do. If Niang set the standard I am pretty excited.

Top 125 recruits currently under Fran's and Fred's belt:

Fred: Georges Niang, Sherron Dorsey-Walker, Matt Thomas, Monte Morris, Clayton Custer

Fran: Adam Woodbury, Mike Gessell and Josh Oglesby

That is five for Fred and three for Fran. Just pointing out the facts for the gentleman that said Fran was just working so hard laying the foundation through hard recruiting and Fred was lazy just picking up transfers. And if Fred does someday go to the NBA it'll mean ISU has been extremely successful. You don't think 18 year old recruits love the fact that Fred has all those NBA connections and links? The great recruiting classes will only get better.

 

[MisterLucky]

I never said it wouldn't be a good game. I expect it to be a very tight game. Of course Iowa has a better team than their last appearance in Ames. These posts act like ISU has zero experience returning. Niang and Ejim make up one of the best frontcourts in their conference. While I don't see both of them making the All Big 12 team it wouldn't surprise me if either of the two do. New players: Hopes are extremely high for Kane. Averaged 15+ ppg each of his first three years. Matt Thomas was a top 50 recruit etc...Pretty similar to their 2011-2012 team that was a 9 seed in the tourney. Hilton isn't one of the toughest road environments in the country? Get over yourself. They had the second longest active home winning streak in the country and it still should be going if not for the KU debacle. To think an Iowa team that played in the NIT last year is going to come in and roll ISU in Ames is just ridiculous. The same Iowa team that lost in Lincoln, NE with 1,000 fans in the stands only months ago.

But it's not really the same team as last year, is it?

 

[deanvogs]

I think your point number two is a really good one. That concerns me as well to some degree. Monte Morris was asked by Travis Hines of the Ames Tribune after a CCL game recently how he felt about Hoiberg bringing Kane in (to play point). I'm paraphrasing, but Morris said he was a little disappointed but didn't know how the minutes would work out so he didn't really have an opinion on it.

That said... Fran is currently recruiting over players already on your roster as I type this. What difference does it make if the guy to come in is a stud freshmen or transfer? You guys would take Ulis in a heartbeat. That would mean Clemmons goes to the bench next year, right? After all, if you guys can land Ulis, he'd be the best true point guard on your team. Do you have an issue with that if Clemmons gets upset because of it? Probably not i'd guess. How will you feel when Oglesby doesn't play much next year because Jok shoots the 3 better (which he does by way)?

Why is it bad to recruit over players with transfers but not with other freshmen? In both cases feelings get hurt just the same.

Just imagine if your boss had hired a team of new workers 8 months ago to start working with the rest of your team. Then at the last minute he brings in a hired gun from out of town. Will it help the team? Sure it will, and you will be more productive, and some will be on board with that. Other that are lets say losing money, or job opportunities (playing time) to the hired gun are going to see it differently, and some are going to harbor some resentment about this. It is human nature, it is only nature. There is a reason that Fred has had so many players transfer OUT of the program.

Not saying it is bad to recruit over players with transfers, just saying it is a bit different than brining in FR. I would think that when Morris was recruited, IF Fred was planning on bringing in another PG in the same class, he would have to be on board with the idea in order for him to commit. The thing about this is, who knows what promises Fred made to Morris about being the only PG recruit he was taking. Then wham bam at the last minute he is pretty much losing his minutes to someone else, and if he had known this was going to happen he may very well have never signed with ISU. Big, big difference.

 

[Hawkstrat]

First off, Bubu Palo was a walk-on who earned a scholarship. He doesn't really count as a recruit.

I mean you can't refer to Marble, White, Basabe, Clemmons or Jok as big time recruits. Did Marble and White turn into solid players? Yes. Were they big time recruits? Not even close. They were all three star players and collectively had zero impressive offers other than Iowa. Fran had to throw his young recruits into the fire early and it is looking like it may start to pay dividends.

Are you drunk?

Marble, White, Basabe and Clemmons have proven they can play on the court. Rankings are usually a good indicator of how good a player is going to be, but after new information comes along (actual production) the rankings go out the window.

You can't say Fran didn't do a good job of getting a player like White, simply because he wasn't highly sought after. White was good from day one- if anything it shows what kind of talent evaluator Fran is.

That's just such a strange argument to make. If a coach can consistently find undervalued players, that's a mark for him being a good recruiter, you're trying to use it to demonstrate he hasn't recruited well. Just asinine.

 

[bcl20]

Iowa State smells like gurgling beer fart.

 

[deanvogs]

Are you drunk?

Marble, White, Basabe and Clemmons have proven they can play on the court. Rankings are usually a good indicator of how good a player is going to be, but after new information comes along (actual production) the rankings go out the window.

You can't say Fran didn't do a good job of getting a player like White, simply because he wasn't highly sought after. White was good from day one- if anything it shows what kind of talent evaluator Fran is.

That's just such a strange argument to make. If a coach can consistently find undervalued players, that's a mark for him being a good recruiter, you're trying to use it to demonstrate he hasn't recruited well. Just asinine.

Forevertroll is the single worst poster on this board. I think he has posted that exact same post about 15 times in the BB forum. For all his bragging about the top 125 kids, only 1 of them has actually scored a single basket for Freddie. Keep in mind, this is after 4 freaking recruiting classes.....Fred has brought in exactly 2 productive FR since he came to LAmes (Ejim, and Niang). Fran on the other hand has brought in productive FR in Marble, Basabe, McCabe, Ogelsby, White, Olesani, Gesell, Woody, Clemmons. It isn't even close who has brought in the better FR talent. All forevertroll can hope is that the round of FR that Fred has brought in, that actually do look quite promising stay on campus, and actually produce on the court.

 

[ForeverIowan]

Are you drunk?

Marble, White, Basabe and Clemmons have proven they can play on the court. Rankings are usually a good indicator of how good a player is going to be, but after new information comes along (actual production) the rankings go out the window.

You can't say Fran didn't do a good job of getting a player like White, simply because he wasn't highly sought after. White was good from day one- if anything it shows what kind of talent evaluator Fran is.

That's just such a strange argument to make. If a coach can consistently find undervalued players, that's a mark for him being a good recruiter, you're trying to use it to demonstrate he hasn't recruited well. Just asinine.

Where in my post did I ever say Fran has not recruited well? All I did was point out the statistical facts that Fred has recruited better. Period. If anything give credit to Fran for developing players. But to say he did a great job and was just busting his butt on the recruiting trail is what is "asinine". He missed on his higher targets and Iowa was Marble's and White's best offer by far. I can more than guarantee you they were a bit of a fall back offer for Fran. They had no other real high major offers. Marble and White have indeed turned into solid players. If you are so high on the cornerstones of your program one might ask why they haven't lead you to an NCAA tournament yet in what will be their junior and senior seasons?

 

[Campbell]

Just imagine if your boss had hired a team of new workers 8 months ago to start working with the rest of your team. Then at the last minute he brings in a hired gun from out of town. Will it help the team? Sure it will, and you will be more productive, and some will be on board with that. Other that are lets say losing money, or job opportunities (playing time) to the hired gun are going to see it differently, and some are going to harbor some resentment about this. It is human nature, it is only nature. There is a reason that Fred has had so many players transfer OUT of the program.

Not saying it is bad to recruit over players with transfers, just saying it is a bit different than brining in FR. I would think that when Morris was recruited, IF Fred was planning on bringing in another PG in the same class, he would have to be on board with the idea in order for him to commit. The thing about this is, who knows what promises Fred made to Morris about being the only PG recruit he was taking. Then wham bam at the last minute he is pretty much losing his minutes to someone else, and if he had known this was going to happen he may very well have never signed with ISU. Big, big difference.

Major league reach here.

Nobody is guaranteed any number of minutes, especially incoming freshmen that aren't one-and-done candidates. Kane came to ISU to play point guard, as did Morris, but both can play off the ball and Fred uses three and four-guard lineups a lot. Basically the Cyclones will have seven guards worthy of minutes this year, so Kane and Morris will likely play at the same time for stretches anyways. That depth at guard is goong to make or break this team, because the front court is completely different story.

This ISU team will be incredibly small even for a Fred-coached team, so when Iowa comes to Ames I see both teams trying to exploit their own advantages: the Hawks giving ISU a heavy dose of Woodbury, Uthoff and White inside, and the Clones trying to run and space the floor like they've done so often under Fred. Right now, just with the way recent home-field advantage has worked out in this rivalry, I see ISU winning by 2-4 points, but, I could just as easily see Iowa winning this one by 6-8 points, too.

To be honest, I like the years where there is no clear-cut favorite between the two. Right now I would expect Vegas to have ISU as a 3/4-point favorite just because the game is at Hilton.

 

[Foval21]

I am just trying to figure out how a team that lost almost all of their main players from the previous year thinks they will automatically beat a team that returns pretty much everyone. Especially when they lost in the previous year. My wife is a cyclone and even she isn't diluted. I think it should be a close game as it is in Hilton and Fred has been a better coach than I thought he would be but Iowa has the upper hand because of the returning players.

 

[ddiction]

Forevertroll is the single worst poster on this board. I think he has posted that exact same post about 15 times in the BB forum. For all his bragging about the top 125 kids, only 1 of them has actually scored a single basket for Freddie. Keep in mind, this is after 4 freaking recruiting classes.....Fred has brought in exactly 2 productive FR since he came to LAmes (Ejim, and Niang). Fran on the other hand has brought in productive FR in Marble, Basabe, McCabe, Ogelsby, White, Olesani, Gesell, Woody, Clemmons. It isn't even close who has brought in the better FR talent. All forevertroll can hope is that the round of FR that Fred has brought in, that actually do look quite promising stay on campus, and actually produce on the court.

In fairness, Marble and McCabe committed before Fran arrived, but he did convince them to stay (Ben Brust and Cody Larson decommitted).

 

[ForeverIowan]

Forevertroll is the single worst poster on this board. I think he has posted that exact same post about 15 times in the BB forum. For all his bragging about the top 125 kids, only 1 of them has actually scored a single basket for Freddie. Keep in mind, this is after 4 freaking recruiting classes.....Fred has brought in exactly 2 productive FR since he came to LAmes (Ejim, and Niang). Fran on the other hand has brought in productive FR in Marble, Basabe, McCabe, Ogelsby, White, Olesani, Gesell, Woody, Clemmons. It isn't even close who has brought in the better FR talent. All forevertroll can hope is that the round of FR that Fred has brought in, that actually do look quite promising stay on campus, and actually produce on the court.

Forward: So Gabriel Olaseni has been "productive" but Percy Gibson just goes unmentioned and is trash? Olaseni averaged 2.7 ppg on 10.7 mpg compared to Gibson's 4.5 ppg on 12.1 mpg?

Guard: Oglesby averaged 4.5 ppg on maybe one of the worst three point shooting percentages in the country and he is just PURE PRODUCTION. Meanwhile a solid backup point guard Bubu Palo is just trash and doesn't deserve a mention for being productive at all. Ok I see.

I guess your definition of productive is just being on the court because your team downright does not have any better options. Yeah Penn State and Nebraska had "productive" players all over the court this year. If these recruits Fran is bringing in are so productive why have you yet to finish in the top half of the Big Ten under his watch?

I am now dumber for reading your post please just don't even reply to anything I write if you put this kind of crap out there! Just flat out horrible.

 

[MisterLucky]

A lot will depend on the games that are played up to that point, but I would be surprised if ISU were favored, even at home. Wouldn't be surprised to see Vegas post it as a push.

 

[MisterLucky]

Forward: So Gabriel Olaseni has been "productive" but Percy Gibson just goes unmentioned and is trash? Olaseni averaged 2.7 ppg on 10.7 mpg compared to Gibson's 4.5 ppg on 12.1 mpg?

Guard: Oglesby averaged 4.5 ppg on maybe one of the worst three point shooting percentages in the country and he is just PURE PRODUCTION. Meanwhile a solid backup point guard Bubu Palo is just trash and doesn't deserve a mention for being productive at all. Ok I see.

I guess your definition of productive is just being on the court because your team downright does not have any better options. Yeah Penn State and Nebraska had "productive" players all over the court this year. If these recruits Fran is bringing in are so productive why have you yet to finish in the top half of the Big Ten under his watch?

I am now dumber for reading your post please just don't even reply to anything I write if you put this kind of crap out there! Just flat out horrible.

I certainly agree with you being dumber, but I suspect it has nothing to do with deanvogs post.

 

[ForeverIowan]

I certainly agree with you being dumber, but I suspect it has nothing to do with deanvogs post.

Great, thoughtful post. Applause all around.

 

[deanvogs]

Forward: So Gabriel Olaseni has been "productive" but Percy Gibson just goes unmentioned and is trash? Olaseni averaged 2.7 ppg on 10.7 mpg compared to Gibson's 4.5 ppg on 12.1 mpg?

Guard: Oglesby averaged 4.5 ppg on maybe one of the worst three point shooting percentages in the country and he is just PURE PRODUCTION. Meanwhile a solid backup point guard Bubu Palo is just trash and doesn't deserve a mention for being productive at all. Ok I see.

I guess your definition of productive is just being on the court because your team downright does not have any better options. Yeah Penn State and Nebraska had "productive" players all over the court this year. If these recruits Fran is bringing in are so productive why have you yet to finish in the top half of the Big Ten under his watch?

I am now dumber for reading your post please just don't even reply to anything I write if you put this kind of crap out there! Just flat out horrible.

It is totally impossible for you to get dumber.

Please explain to me how productive Morris, Thomas, Walker, and Cluster have been for the Cyclones? That is 4 of the 5 AWESOME players you listed that prove that Freddie Boy recruits better. If you want though, throw in Gibson as an actual FR recruited by Fran that has actually contributed to the team. Even with him, Freddie is a loooooooong way behind Fran on FR talent brought in and producing up to this point. Don't forget those "unproductive" Iowa players kicked Freddy Boys Arse last year.

 

[deanvogs]

I certainly agree with you being dumber, but I suspect it has nothing to do with deanvogs post.

Forevertroll is possible the worse poster I have ever encountered. Most of the time I think he is a troll, but he is sooooooo bad at it. Then he posts something, and I think that maybe he isn't a troll, and that he is serious. Then I think that it is impossible for anyone to be that dumb.....So I'm about 85% certain he is just a troll, but is terrible at it.