Iowa @ Iowa State (Basketball)

YellowSnow said:
This is absolutely great. You do realize that the argument you laid out above is the EXACT SAME ONE I-State fans were using last year don't you? What happened? Our team of 5th year seniors went to Carver and lost to a bunch of talented youngsters. You guys were going to be too inexperienced... too green... just out of high school... there was no way you could hang with Lucious, Clyburn, Babb, McGee, etc. Remember those comments from Clone fans?

Flash forward one year. Now you are using the exact same logic we did last year and don't seem to understand why we think we'll win the game.
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Well duh... this is because I-State fans have no idea what they're talking about :)

Besides that, the main point Windsor made that is legitimate is the very first part of his post. Iowa State has not been a very good defensive basketball team. So it's not the same thing at all. Iowa played very stout defense last year, and this year they will have an even bigger lineup. To suggest they won't improve defensively would be naive.
 
LawVHawk said:
Stewo, I think this year you will start to see the difference between building a program on a solid foundation of hard recruiting and solid individuals and trying to cobble together one each year with transfers who don't quite fit in other programs. I give The Mayor about two more years before his lack of effective recruiting and long-term planning catches up with him and he decides to move to the NBA. Once again in college hoops, this is a Hawkeye state.

Note the date and book it.
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Seriously?
 
DP5555 said:
Well duh... this is because I-State fans have no idea what they're talking about :)

Besides that, the main point Windsor made that is legitimate is the very first part of his post. Iowa State has not been a very good defensive basketball team. So it's not the same thing at all. Iowa played very stout defense last year, and this year they will have an even bigger lineup. To suggest they won't improve defensively would be naive.
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I agree with you except for your first sentence... :p

ISU would have won at least 3 more games last year (not the Iowa game) had we actually played some clutch defense at the end when we had the lead. Kansas twice and at Oklahoma State.
 
LawVHawk said:
Stewo, I think this year you will start to see the difference between building a program on a solid foundation of hard recruiting and solid individuals and trying to cobble together one each year with transfers who don't quite fit in other programs. I give The Mayor about two more years before his lack of effective recruiting and long-term planning catches up with him and he decides to move to the NBA. Once again in college hoops, this is a Hawkeye state.

Note the date and book it.
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At first, it was said it won't work to bring in a bunch of transfers. It did though. Now, it's that it won't work for much longer. Which is it? By the way, this doing it the right way crap is just that. Crap. Also, there are 2 true freshmen that will see significant playing time this year. Thomas will probably even start. The red shirt freshmen will also probably start most nights. Then, you have a sophomore who will be starting. You also have 2 4-year guys. One of which will be a starter and the other will get quite a few minutes. Just because coach A brings in essentially only freshmen, doesn't mean that coach B should as well. They're two different coaches with two different styles and so far, one of those has worked quite a bit better than the other. Lastly, Fred isn't jumping ship in two years. That's merely wishful thinking on your end.
 
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DP5555 said:
Well said. Count me in on that prediction. +1 hombre.
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You agree with LawVHawk, so let me ask you... His argument, which you agree with, is very frustrating for me to try to understand.

What exactly is the problem with Hoiberg's strategy as you see it and what do you think will happen because of it? I guess I am asking... what is the worst case scenario for Hoiberg and ISU as you see it? I'm honestly curious. What is going to "catch up with him"?
 
YellowSnow said:
Seriously?
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I'm with you, Snow. I have no grounds yet to doubt the Mayor. Also the experience over youth argument is a bit weak, especially considering last year's game. I think of it this way: last year's winning team returns almost its entire team. Last year's losing team loses at least half of its production, and its new players are very unlikely to match the high production of last year's seniors. Logically last year's winning team seems poised for an easy win.
 
Stewo said:
At first, it was said it won't work to bring in a bunch of transfers. It did though. Now, it's that it won't work for much longer. Which is it? By the way, this doing it the right way crap is just that. Crap. Also, there are 2 true freshmen that will see significant playing time this year. Thomas will probably even start. The red shirt freshmen will also probably start most nights. Then, you have a sophomore who will be starting. You also have 2 4-year guys. One of which will be a starter and the other will get quite a few minutes. Just because coach A brings in essentially only freshmen, doesn't mean that coach B should as well. They're two different coaches with two different styles and so far, one of those has worked quite a bit better than the other. Lastly, Fred isn't jumping ship in two years. That's merely wishful thinking on your end.
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Here is some food for thought....

Iowa State has the same amount of top 150 freshmen and sophomores on the roster than Iowa does. I chose 150 because Uthoff was 149 out of high school. Gave them a bit of a boost if you will.

Niang 69
SDW 125
Morris 96
Thomas 54

Them....
Woody 50
Gesell 100
Ogelsby 122
Uthoff 149
White Not ranked
Clemmons Not ranked
 
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YellowSnow said:
You agree with LawVHawk, so let me ask you... His argument, which you agree with, is very frustrating for me to try to understand.

What exactly is the problem with Hoiberg's strategy as you see it and what do you think will happen because of it? I guess I am asking... what is the worst case scenario for Hoiberg and ISU as you see it? I'm honestly curious. What is going to "catch up with him"?
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It's not complicated, you take enough risks, you'll eventually get burned.

When you give players second chances simply because they are good at basketball, you run the risk of them committing another or more serious infraction. One that the coach will, and fairly so- be blamed for.
 
volhawk50 said:
I'm with you, Snow. I have no grounds yet to doubt the Mayor. Also the experience over youth argument is a bit weak, especially considering last year's game. I think of it this way: last year's winning team returns almost its entire team. Last year's losing team loses at least half of its production, and its new players are very unlikely to match the high production of last year's seniors. Logically last year's winning team seems poised for an easy win.
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Yep... that is perfectly logical. However... look at the freaking stats our seniors put up in that game... holy hell.

The Iowa D played great. No dispute there at all. However, from an ISU perspective, no matter who we roll out there in December it can't be worse. Plus it's at Hilton. I like ISU in the game. Not gonna bet on it or anything... but I feel confident.
 
YellowSnow said:
Yep... that is perfectly logical. However... look at the freaking stats our seniors put up in that game... holy hell.

The Iowa D played great. No dispute there at all. However, from an ISU perspective, no matter who we roll out there in December it can't be worse. Plus it's at Hilton. I like ISU in the game. Not gonna bet on it or anything... but I feel confident.
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If I were you, I would probably be confident as well. Understand that our side has reason for confidence as well.
 
Stewo said:
Wow. That comment about your freshmen really got at you guys. It's just an uninformed clown fan remember. Why care so much?
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Says the guy who seems to be upset by the fact that Iowa fan got upset????

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Whatever happens, I'd love to see both Iowa and ISU ranked going into the game. I'm tired of our in-state games hurting each other's RPI.
 
YellowSnow said:
Here is some food for thought....

Iowa State has more top 150 freshmen and sophomores on the roster than Iowa does. I chose 150 because Uthoff was 149 out of high school. Gave them a bit of a boost if you will.

Niang 69
SDW 125
Morris 96
Thomas 54

Them....
Woody 50
Gesell 100
Uthoff 149
White Not ranked
Clemmons Not ranked
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Ogelsby was a top 150 kid, so it is actually 4 and 4.
 
deanvogs said:
Ogelsby was a top 150 kid, so it is actually 4 and 4.
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Yes... my bad. He was 122. Sorry about that. I was not trying to short change you guys. Honestly. He isn't mentioned much in the argument threads here and I forgot about him.

I was just trying to put an end to the Fred isn't building a "long term" program commentary.
 
Hawkstrat said:
It's not complicated, you take enough risks, you'll eventually get burned.

When you give players second chances simply because they are good at basketball, you run the risk of them committing another or more serious infraction. One that the coach will, and fairly so- be blamed for.
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I don't really see ISU taking huge risks; as much as I like to bash the 'Clods and Coach Hilburke there is absolutely nothing telling me he is taking big risk when he is bringing in these transfers...White being probably the only one that came with any amount of risk.
Here is the thing; ISU is bringing in quality freshman on paper and some transfers. If Hoyturd was bringing in transfers and solely relying on them, the 'Clods would be bringing in less freshman. Yeah, he brought in a slew of transfers from all over the place, but the only real questionable one was White and he didn't burn the 'Clods or Heartburn.
One could argue he is building long term, but and I say this just looking at history, bringing in multiple JUCO's will not sustain long term success, but I will be surprised if the 'Clods continue to bring in more than two JUCO's per year moving forward.
 
YellowSnow said:
Here is some food for thought....

Iowa State has the same amount of top 150 freshmen and sophomores on the roster than Iowa does. I chose 150 because Uthoff was 149 out of high school. Gave them a bit of a boost if you will.

Niang 69
SDW 125
Morris 96
Thomas 54

Them....
Woody 50
Gesell 100
Ogelsby 122
Uthoff 149
White Not ranked
Clemmons Not ranked
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White being unranked is funny because he is probably going to be the best player in the game. If it isn't him, then I think Marble would be the next best player in the game and he was unranked as well.

Rankings are for fans and experts, but mean nothing until players hit the floor. For every Kevin Durant, there is a Steph Curry that was on nobody's radar.
 
sportstalent said:
White being unranked is funny because he is probably going to be the best player in the game. If it isn't him, then I think Marble would be the next best player in the game and he was unranked as well.

Rankings are for fans and experts, but mean nothing until players hit the floor. For every Kevin Durant, there is a Steph Curry that was on nobody's radar.
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That isn't true. Rankings are a good indicator of the talent coming in. It isn't perfect, but typically highly ranked players make bigger impacts.
 
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