Benddontbreak
Well-Known Member
Boom. Roasted.
A little appreciation for Gatens
- Thread starter Carrollhawk16
- Start date
Boom. Roasted.
ColumbusHawk
Well-Known Member
Gatens deserves very little appreciation!
sportstalent
Well-Known Member
This I don't understand, he has been a lightning rod since he stepped on campus, it seems like he is as big or bigger villian as Lickliter.
He is a 1,000 pt scorer and a kid that has stuck with Iowa, say all you want that he couldn't contribute on better teams, but we really don't know that. Gatens has had little around him in his career. It will be interesting to see Matt have four familiar faces in the starting lineup next season, when was the last time Iowa had that?
Matt has been a good player for Iowa, his overall development has been hindered by the toxic situation at Iowa, then he gets hurt when he finally has a coach that knows something.
Anyway, I would like to know the reasons for the reason he doesn't deserve appreciation for sticking out a terrible situation, when a lot of people didn't. It isn't like he came in and has been a player with little to no contribution.
jacknicholson
Well-Known Member
I do know that Tom Izzo said that he would love to have Matt on his team after one of Matt's very nice games against the Spartans. Izzo doesn't just throw praise around like confetti. Loyalty seems to be a foreign commodity in almost every situation. I sure do hope that Adam Woodbury stays loyal to his Hawkeye love nurtured by his parents for years on end.
hawkIhoops
Well-Known Member
Wow, this thread won't go away. Here are my thoughts:
1) Some don't like Gatens because they didn't like his dad back in the day or don't like him know. Rich, influential guy = rich kid syndrome.
2) Hype-Many Iowa fans can't grasp that putting up big numbers in Iowa high school basketball does not = big numbers at the next level..especially in the big ten. Dissappointment stemming from too many expectations...like Gatens must not be trying.
3) Blame game. Bad teams, unhappy fans, so let's blame somebody. Other than Cole and Gatens, nobody else has been here long enough to point a finger at.
IMO, Gatens has been stuck on crap teams with little / no talent around him. Because of this, he he has been expected to do things he isn't capable of. He's had to play 1-4 in his career and log heavy minutes guarding / being guarded by better athletes. He would be a nice complimentary player on a team with 2-3 better scoring options, but to expect him to go for 18-20 per game (unless he makes 10 ft's) is unrealistic. He has never turned into the leader I hoped he would, but maybe that is not his deal. He plays hard, wants to win, is a good teammate (it appears), but has been a good player on awful teams.
1) Some don't like Gatens because they didn't like his dad back in the day or don't like him know. Rich, influential guy = rich kid syndrome.
2) Hype-Many Iowa fans can't grasp that putting up big numbers in Iowa high school basketball does not = big numbers at the next level..especially in the big ten. Dissappointment stemming from too many expectations...like Gatens must not be trying.
3) Blame game. Bad teams, unhappy fans, so let's blame somebody. Other than Cole and Gatens, nobody else has been here long enough to point a finger at.
IMO, Gatens has been stuck on crap teams with little / no talent around him. Because of this, he he has been expected to do things he isn't capable of. He's had to play 1-4 in his career and log heavy minutes guarding / being guarded by better athletes. He would be a nice complimentary player on a team with 2-3 better scoring options, but to expect him to go for 18-20 per game (unless he makes 10 ft's) is unrealistic. He has never turned into the leader I hoped he would, but maybe that is not his deal. He plays hard, wants to win, is a good teammate (it appears), but has been a good player on awful teams.
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storminspank
Justin VanLaere
Don't forget Matt wasn't 100% at any point during the season. Sure, about mid-way he was able to play games without the brace, but he never fully healed. He put up decent numbers and lead the team in scoring with a bum hand.
I have named this in several other threads.
Cartwright is a horrible shooter (Never shot above 40% in his career and a paltry .275 3-pt %). He had an awful 0.99 PPS. Cartwright is also a turnover machine (Assist to turnover ratio of 1.78).
If you are comparing to this year, we don't know since we have no sample size to evaluate since the Big Ten is turning over the majority of guards. That's an unfair comparison to say that Cartwright is better than pg X since we have either limited or no data to work with.
Let's compare him to last year's group in the categories of scoring and passing efficiency.
Scoring (PPS):
* Al Nolen - 1.51
Lewis Jackson - 1.44
Aaron Craft -1.42
Jordan Taylor - 1.38
Jordan Hulls - 1.38
Lance Jeter - 1.37
D McCamey - 1.36
Michael Thompson - 1.32
Tim Frazier - 1.30
Darius Morris - 1.28
Kalin Lucas - 1.28
Cartwright - 0.99
Passing Efficiency (A/T)
Jordan Taylor - 3.83
Darius Morris - 2.28
Michael Thompson - 2.26
Aaron Craft - 2.24
Lance Jeter - 2.20
Lewis Jackson - 2.14
Tim Frazier - 2.11
D McCamey - 1.36
* Al Nolen - 1.79
Cartwright - 1.78
Jordan Hulls - 1.74
Kalin Lucas - 1.31
*Small sample size of 14 games
So as you can see Cartwright ranked 12th in scoring efficiency and 10th in passing efficiency. Playing a lot of minutes and having a lot of opportunites does not make you a good player. He put up some volumes because of his pt and shot opportunities, but he did it very inefficiently.
If all the homers on here are correct and Basabe is one of the best post players in the conference, Cartwright is one of the best point guards, Gatens is an above average wing and Marble has future star written all over him; I'm looking forward to competing for the Big Ten Title and making the NCAA's.
If Cartwright is one of the best pg's in the conference this year, it speaks volumes about the weakness of the position in the conference. My prediction for next season is closer to 14-15 wins.
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knighthawk13
Well-Known Member
I can attest to the validity of this post. Coach Miller is a demanding guy. I witnessed some of the workouts he put his kids through.
storminspank
Justin VanLaere
Cartwright led the conference in assists last season.
His season stats are weak because he really struggled in the non-conf while he adjusted to the new system.
He was really, REALLY bad early on for Iowa and was worried as to why McCaffery brought him in. But he proved that he is legit halfway through the season.
Not the greatest shooter (but can score), good passer, good court awareness, can get into the lane, adequate on D.
He improved slightly throughout the year, but it wasn't hard considering how poorly he played early on. His Big Ten stats were better, but not significantly better. He would still rank in the lower portion of the Big Ten in efficiency. He can score, because he takes a lot of shots. Most other middle of the road Big Ten point guards would do the same if they took the same role.
A good example of why efficiency matters more than totals is Kalin Lucas. People were shocked why he did get drafted after playing on two Final 4 teams and averaging 17 ppg his final season. NBA scouts were far more concerned with his mediocre 1.28 PPS and horrible 1.31 A/T. He is a glorified inefficient volume scorer that won't translate to the next level. The same can be said about Cartwright's game.
Compare that to a good pg like Taylor. He had a 1.38 PPS and 3.83 A/T.
Cartwright is an average PG who plays an important role on our team, but to confuse him with elite pg's is a mistake.
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storminspank
Justin VanLaere
1.) I've never proclaimed Cartwright was an elite PG. Not once. I've said he is a very good PG.
2.) Cartwright SIGNIFICANTLY improved over the course of the year. That is irrefutable. To say different is ludicrous.
3.) No one is saying he going to go "the next level".
Smoot,you say Bryce is an average pg in the Big Ten,yet you yourself admit that you cannot definitely name many who are better....you are going strictly by season long averages to judge Bryce,when he played much better in the Big Ten as he actually got more acclimated after starting as a backup.
I will make you a bet right now that Cartwright ends up being in the top half of the league in pgs...and being named to one of the Big Ten teams or honorable mention.
Gus Johnson and other BTN analysts were calling Cartwright one of the better pgs in the league by the end of the season...they are objective,not the feared homer you accuse everyone on an Iowa bb website of being.
I will make you a bet right now that Cartwright ends up being in the top half of the league in pgs...and being named to one of the Big Ten teams or honorable mention.
Gus Johnson and other BTN analysts were calling Cartwright one of the better pgs in the league by the end of the season...they are objective,not the feared homer you accuse everyone on an Iowa bb website of being.
storminspank
Justin VanLaere
Opportunities and playing time.
Cartwright had a lot of assists, but he also accumulated a lot of turnovers in the process.
Who would you takes on your team:
PG A) averages 6 assists and 3 turnovers
or
PG B) averages 4 assists and 1 turnover
Chances are A has more total assists. Does that mean he is the better PG?
storminspank
Justin VanLaere
Guards that had more playing time than Cartwright -
Battle
Thompson
Taylor
Deibler
Hoffarbor
Morris
Moore
Lucas
McCamey
........ and the list goes on.
So if these guards had more Playing Time (a reason you give), why didn't they have more assists?
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
Who was shocked Lucas wasn't drafted? He was never considered a big time NBA prospect. Also, A/T ratio is really not that good of a stat to measure pg play by. Take Taylor for example, his A/T ratio is mostly due to the offense he plays in, not his skills. Just because Jose Calderon leads the NBA in A/T ratio does that make him an above average pg? Of course not.
Also Taylor isn't going to do anything in the NBA either so don't be shocked when he doesn't make an NBA team despite his efficient numbers.
Please cite where I admitted this. I said last season Cartwright was one of the least efficient PG's in the league, which he was. All I said was it's hard to rank the point guards this upcoming season because there are so many new ones in the league. You can't evaluate rookies without significant time on the court and stats to justify it.
Should we say that Vandenberg can't be a top 5 Big Ten qb because he hasn't had much time to start yet? I'm sure you wouldn't make that argument, so it's senseless to say the other teams can't plug in pg's that will be better than Cartwright.
All I've heard on the basketball board so far is how Basabe is a top Big 10 PF, Cartwright is a top Big Ten PG, and Gatens is an above average wing.
Why don't one of you use your constant subjective analysis to explain how we finished 2nd to last in the conference with these good players?
You guys are starting to act like Clown fans praising mediocrity like this.
