Woodbury has regressed

[Jjgoiowa11]

OK....give me some examples. Sorry. Go back and watch some tape.

As an opponent, I'd be much more concerned with Olesani defensively than Woody at this point.

Relax man, he's a soph and it's only the 3rd game. I guess you have a point..he isn't as far along as the dominant centers like seth gorney, looby, Hansen, greg helmers, brommer, marcelo gomes... Makaveli's post is spot on. Also, I think woody dunked last year on a break away....may be wrong though

 

[Thawki]

people don't understand Woodbury's purpose.... He role isn't to shoot a lot or score a lot of points.

The point is to have bid defenders that make it hard to finish around the paint and make shots uncomfortable.

He is never going to avg a lot of points a game.

So he is Luc Longley/Bill Cartwright. But he might get to 12-14 points a game by the time he is a senior.

 

[PCHawk]

I think Woody had 3 dunks in the black and gold blow out.

 

[PCHawk]

TLDR warning.

Some general thoughts about Woody, Gabe, maturation, and craft:

Woody's strength: he is bigger than last year, but he is still a gangly 19-year-old. When he picks up a cheap foul, or when he has problems finishing, it's largely a matter or two things: first, his slow footspeed, which is largely genetic, though somewhat trainable; second, his lower-body and core musculature hasn't caught up with his frame. Making an explosive movement in the post requires considerable leg, glute, and core strength, as well as balance. Woody is pretty coordinated for a seven footer. However, he is not strong, and won't be for another year or two. Muscle hypertrophy takes time. His upper body is also not yet developed, and this hurts his ability to finish in traffic. If you watch him, he knows what to do, he's practiced the footwork, he just doesn't have the physical maturity to do it against D1 players. Time will fix that.

Gabe is physically ready for the NBA. He's older, and has matured faster. Why is he the lesser player right now?

Easy. Woody's thousands of hours of high school and AAU ball. Gladwell's 10,000 hours thesis has been critiqued (but not soundly refuted), and his argument bears mentioning with the Gabe vs. Woody debate. Woody has been exposed to good coaching since he was a middle schooler. By his senior year, he'll be getting near that 10,000 hours of guided practice needed to achieve excellence (and if he makes the NBA, he'll need more work to take college excellence to the next level). Excellence, for the purposes of this argument, is the ability to perform at an all-conference level.

Gabe, on the other hand, started playing basketball at 14, and didn't have access to good coaching until he hit Sunrise Academy. With continued good coaching and a lot of work, he could be a backup NBA center when he's 24 or 25. If he has a Euro league coach who can develop him. If not, he plateaus his senior year at Iowa.

The odds are better for Woody to become a quality center because he's learned the game, and simply needs a year or two of physical development. Gabe, on the other hand, needs to spend four more years working diligently at mastering the craft of post play.

Most of Woody's cheap fouls come from being aggressive going after rebounds. The only time he plays weak at all is during offensive moves.

 

[Seth53]

Relax man, he's a soph and it's only the 3rd game. I guess you have a point..he isn't as far along as the dominant centers like seth gorney, looby, Hansen, greg helmers, brommer, marcelo gomes... Makaveli's post is spot on. Also, I think woody dunked last year on a break away....may be wrong though

None of those guys were ranked top-50 and had the likes of NC, KY, etc after them.

Guess I'm expecting more.

 

[DowsHawk1]

Woody's help defense is light years ahead of Gabe's. IMO one of the big changes in the Hawks going from very poor to pretty darn good last year was that Woody was there to help out when the guards got beat off the dribble and was still able to get back to his man without giving up a layup or a dunk. I think there is no comparison in his ability to keep his man off the offensive glass. He's not as flashy and won't have near the highlight reel Gabe will. He will make a difference in the number of W's the Hawks have.

I'd also give him props for working on his free throws. His stroke is much improved and looks very good for a 7 footer. I wish he had better vertical, there is still work to be done on the defensive boards, and his offense has a long ways to go. When we do get into league play his size will separate him defensively from Gabe and he's a key player for us. Don't get me wrong, I love Gabe but he's got a lot more developing to do.

Edit: Would it surprise anyone that Gabe has 4 defensive rebounds in 3 games?

 

[sportstalent]

None of those guys were ranked top-50 and had the likes of NC, KY, etc after them.

Guess I'm expecting more.

Expectations based on rankings are worth what I flush every morning.

Woodbury is going to be a good player, he has things to work on, but he still looks like he is in a huge hurry and not being a natural athlete, he can struggle at times. He does more than enough good things for me to see him go on and have a good career at Iowa. The big problem, Woodbury was Iowa's only viable player above 6'10" at the start of last season and had to play. With more depth, he can begin to relax on offense. Defensively, he always looked tuned in.

 

[Seth53]

Expectations based on rankings are worth what I flush every morning.

Have to agree to disagree.

I believe there is a more-than-strong correlation between player ranking and ultimate productivity. I think it's unwise to immediately dismiss rankings as a purely intellectual exercise.

Duke, KY, KS, UNC in BB....OSU, Alabama, etc in FB recruit big time (i.e. highly rated) players, and a lot of them. Their program records speak for themselves.

 

[SidFarkas]

Have to agree to disagree.

I believe there is a more-than-strong correlation between player ranking and ultimate productivity. I think it's unwise to immediately dismiss rankings as a purely intellectual exercise.

Duke, KY, KS, UNC in BB....OSU, Alabama, etc in FB recruit big time (i.e. highly rated) players, and a lot of them. Their program records speak for themselves.

Woody was awesome against AC. Great perimeter D and recovery in the paint. Talking in the zone late in the game tonight. Great effort and very thankful to have him as a Hawk!

 

[tm3308]

The main thing I notice with Woody on defense that I don't like is that he always seems to lunge/throw out his hip a little when hedging screens on the perimeter. That's part of the new rules and it's my main concern with him on defense. Otherwise, he's very good, even if he's not flashy, on defense. Much more fundamentally sound than Gabe, although Gabe has far better physical ability right now because he was such a late starter and isn't as far along in his basketball development as Woody.

 

[tm3308]

None of those guys were ranked top-50 and had the likes of NC, KY, etc after them.

Guess I'm expecting more.

Okay, so you want a few examples of guys the blue bloods recruited and had to wait awhile before the signing paid dividends?

Mason Plumlee was a 4-star recruit (#55 according to Rivals) and averaged 3.7 and 7.2 ppg as a freshman and sophomore at Duke (he averaged 14.1 and 25.9 mpg in those seasons; Woody averaged 16.5 last season). He averaged 11.1 and 17.1 ppg in his last two seasons and was a first round pick in the last NBA draft.

Tyler Zeller (4-star, #33) averaged 7.1 ppg as an underclassman and averaged 16.1 as an upperclassman. Also a first round pick.

Jeff Withey (4-star, #36) didn't hit double-digit ppg until he was a senior, when he averaged 13.7 ppg and 8.5 rebounds to earn consensus 2nd team AA honors. Second round pick.

Meyers Leonard (4-star, #31) averaged just 2.1 ppg as a freshman before exploding as a sophomore. First round pick. Illinois isn't a blue blood school, but Leonard was an elite center prospect who didn't produce immediate results.

Not every top-50 big man recruit is Cody Zeller, who was well-established as a freak athlete for a player of his size. And we all knew well before he arrived that Woody was not Zeller in terms of athleticism. His ranking was based more on his polish and defensive ability, which is largely what he's shown thus far. His defense is pretty good and he's fundamentally sound. But he doesn't wow fans with freaky athletic plays like Gabe can.

 

[Seth53]

Okay, so you want a few examples of guys the blue bloods recruited and had to wait awhile before the signing paid dividends?

Mason Plumlee was a 4-star recruit (#55 according to Rivals) and averaged 3.7 and 7.2 ppg as a freshman and sophomore at Duke (he averaged 14.1 and 25.9 mpg in those seasons; Woody averaged 16.5 last season). He averaged 11.1 and 17.1 ppg in his last two seasons and was a first round pick in the last NBA draft.

Tyler Zeller (4-star, #33) averaged 7.1 ppg as an underclassman and averaged 16.1 as an upperclassman. Also a first round pick.

Jeff Withey (4-star, #36) didn't hit double-digit ppg until he was a senior, when he averaged 13.7 ppg and 8.5 rebounds to earn consensus 2nd team AA honors. Second round pick.

Meyers Leonard (4-star, #31) averaged just 2.1 ppg as a freshman before exploding as a sophomore. First round pick. Illinois isn't a blue blood school, but Leonard was an elite center prospect who didn't produce immediate results.

Not every top-50 big man recruit is Cody Zeller, who was well-established as a freak athlete for a player of his size. And we all knew well before he arrived that Woody was not Zeller in terms of athleticism. His ranking was based more on his polish and defensive ability, which is largely what he's shown thus far. His defense is pretty good and he's fundamentally sound. But he doesn't wow fans with freaky athletic plays like Gabe can.

\

Q #1--are these all big men?
Q #2--would be interesting to know, if all #50 and higher players for, say, 10 years was researched, what the # of immediate impact players would be.

 

[JonDMiller]

Woodbury is going to be a good player for Iowa. Possibly very good. Those who are ragging on him now just haven't spent much time watching basketball, or if they have they've never really understood it. If that sounds elitist, then it's not for you

The kid is going to be fine and he makes good contributions for this team and does things at his size that no other seven footer has done at Iowa than I can recall, and what few centers can. He has a chance to really explode as the year goes along, but more likely next year and senior year.

 

[bcl20]

Not elitist but a pretty horrible argument defense.

 

[sportstalent]

\

Q #1--are these all big men?
Q #2--would be interesting to know, if all #50 and higher players for, say, 10 years was researched, what the # of immediate impact players would be.

If you don't know the answer to Q#1, then you should not post anything else about Adam.

 

[sportstalent]

Woodbury is going to be a good player for Iowa. Possibly very good. Those who are ragging on him now just haven't spent much time watching basketball, or if they have they've never really understood it. If that sounds elitist, then it's not for you

The kid is going to be fine and he makes good contributions for this team and does things at his size that no other seven footer has done at Iowa than I can recall, and what few centers can. He has a chance to really explode as the year goes along, but more likely next year and senior year.

You are exactly right on this one because if people truly have paid attention to true centers with the same attributes as Woodbury, they would know that their Jr/Sr years are their most productive, but show tremendous growth the last quarter of their sophomore seasons.

 

[Seth53]

If you don't know the answer to Q#1, then you should not post anything else about Adam.

Didn't quite frankly want to research all the names. The list is a select list which could be offset with some effort I suppose.

And I've watched/played basketball for 40 years. I know the game.

Not ragging....merely observing with my thoughts and opinions.

I never agreed with the OP AW has regressed. My opinion is there isn't much difference in productivity and minutes played from last year to this year (thus far). Continual silly fouls and serviceability versus a being difference maker are my observations.

And if the best you have, Mr. Sportstalent, is to insult, I suggest you sir do not post anything else at all.

 

[JonDMiller]

Not elitist but a pretty horrible argument defense.

Look, some things just are. If you can't see it, then you haven't been watching college basketball for the last several decades and don't understand that big men typically develop slower...and that Woodbury has the level of coordination, hand-eye skills, some ball skills and already affects the game defensively that you aren't going to teach.

But some wanna go 'Yeah.....but......stats!'

 

[JonDMiller]

If you don't know the answer to Q#1, then you should not post anything else about Adam.

I went through this exercise a year ago and posted seven or eight names...it's just the way that it is, even with many of the top recruited bigs.

 

[Jjgoiowa11]

Didn't quite frankly want to research all the names. The list is a select list which could be offset with some effort I suppose.

And I've watched/played basketball for 40 years. I know the game.

Not ragging....merely observing with my thoughts and opinions.

I never agreed with the OP AW has regressed. My opinion is there isn't much difference in productivity and minutes played from last year to this year (thus far). Continual silly fouls and serviceability versus a being difference maker are my observations.

And if the best you have, Mr. Sportstalent, is to insult, I suggest you sir do not post anything else at all.

He wasn't even insulting you and he has a point. You really don't know who those bigs are and would really have to 'research' them?? Quite frankly, that's sad..