Seth53
Well-Known Member
I only commented on **tonight's** stats....nothing more, nothing less. Nothing short-sighted at all. The stats do the talking.
Woodbury has regressed
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I only commented on **tonight's** stats....nothing more, nothing less. Nothing short-sighted at all. The stats do the talking.
sportstalent
Well-Known Member
I know and that was a career night for Andrew.
Wasn't ripping you man, I think mentioning Brommer in the same sentence as Woodbury is a bit extreme.
Woodbury has things to work on no doubt, but he does a lot of good things and some of the things he does really well don't always show up on the stat sheet.
JonDMiller
Publisher/Founder
Woodbury impacts the game when he is in the game. It may not always show up in the stat sheet...that's only the first piece of analysis and the most simple. He's fine.
Jjgoiowa11
Well-Known Member
Adam definitely alters shots and guards get that look on their face when they get in the lane like 'oh **** he's bigger than I thought!' He also plays really good d without leaving his feet....not hating on him at all but I honestly don't think he's capable of leaving his feet either...or its a mental block but either way he is a big asset to our team. That's a whole lota body to get going.. Utoff will be fun to watch the next 3 years too
Makavelihawk
Well-Known Member
He is an absolutely fantastic passer. One of, if not the best passing big I've seen at Iowa. What sets him apart to me is that he not only can quickly find the the open guy on the perimeter, but he can pass hi-low in the post. What he lacks in athleticism, which is a lot, he makes up for in basketball IQ and instinct. The ball moves better and more quickly when he is in the game, period.
WindsorHawk
Well-Known Member
All are valid points.
Seth53
Well-Known Member
Defensively?
(Allowing more out front pressure since he is guarding the bucket, etc?)
(MES may stutter when he's in the lane, but the likes of Wisky, MSU, OSU, Michigan won't be intimidated)
Offensively?
(Sorry, he's not adding much. Still can't finish. Isn't powering to the basket. Can't really jump).
Where/what is he affecting?
Really? That's funny because they were last year.
Herkyalert
Banned
Woodbury is further along right now than Les Jepsen or Bill Jones were.
Seth53
Well-Known Member
OK....give me some examples. Sorry. Go back and watch some tape.
As an opponent, I'd be much more concerned with Olesani defensively than Woody at this point.
GoHawks24
Well-Known Member
I just wish that he'd dunk the freaking ball!!!! He's over 7 feet, he should be able to throw it down with ease.
Besides that, I really like the guy and he's been solid for us. He's only going to get better. He just needs to get some more strength. The toughness and scrappy-ness are already there.
Besides that, I really like the guy and he's been solid for us. He's only going to get better. He just needs to get some more strength. The toughness and scrappy-ness are already there.
sportstalent
Well-Known Member
Just tell me why teams made runs against Iowa when Woodbury wasn't on the floor. Gabe is still a lost puppy on the floor and makes highlight plays and not the simple plays...you remember that. Woodbury is the total opposite in every meaning of the word and doesn't make the highlight plays. The simple plays Woodbury makes are far more impactful than what Gabe does. Watch the first Indiana game from last year again and then really watch it.
OUTofTOWNHAWK
Well-Known Member
If I was the coach Id have a hard time finding minutes for Gabe. Woody, Uthoff, and Basabe would be playing inside. At this point Gabe is not understanding things. Once the season gets going its going to stick out a lot more.
I started to keep track for the first couple minutes Gabe played yesterday for every block or bucket he would make he would let his player get in behind him and score easy or have a TO. Thats against a really bad team.
When players drive the lane Gabe will step to the side to set himself up for a block. Half of them he gets half are an easy bucket or foul. Multiple times he left from blocking out to run the floor and Iowa didnt get the rb and the other team scored with Gabe running away from the area.
Gabe does shoot free throws like a boss though.
I started to keep track for the first couple minutes Gabe played yesterday for every block or bucket he would make he would let his player get in behind him and score easy or have a TO. Thats against a really bad team.
When players drive the lane Gabe will step to the side to set himself up for a block. Half of them he gets half are an easy bucket or foul. Multiple times he left from blocking out to run the floor and Iowa didnt get the rb and the other team scored with Gabe running away from the area.
Gabe does shoot free throws like a boss though.
Seth53
Well-Known Member
OK! Solid post!.....hits some highlights of what "doesn't show up in the box score." If AW isn't doing what Gabe is doing, then, OK...I'll buy it.
Perhaps he's leaving early due to direction from the coaching staff?
PalmettoHawkFan
Well-Known Member
Woody:
* stays in position on defense, whether man or zone. this makes a big difference in zone, especially, and helps the perimeter d.
* sets good screens
* great passer -- especially his outlets
* boxes out. loses rebounds on strength, not poor positioning
Gabe
* loses his man going for blocks
* impulsively leaves early going for the block -- his inexperience leads to impatience
* still learning how to box out. his rebounds come from athleticism (and some from garbage time, to be honest)
* below average with the ball in his hands. turnover prone, doesn't help the ball movement.
Gabe can build stat lines that look ok, but keep your eyes on him for a few posessions, and compare him to Woody. Woody is clearly the better center.
* stays in position on defense, whether man or zone. this makes a big difference in zone, especially, and helps the perimeter d.
* sets good screens
* great passer -- especially his outlets
* boxes out. loses rebounds on strength, not poor positioning
Gabe
* loses his man going for blocks
* impulsively leaves early going for the block -- his inexperience leads to impatience
* still learning how to box out. his rebounds come from athleticism (and some from garbage time, to be honest)
* below average with the ball in his hands. turnover prone, doesn't help the ball movement.
Gabe can build stat lines that look ok, but keep your eyes on him for a few posessions, and compare him to Woody. Woody is clearly the better center.
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OUTofTOWNHAWK
Well-Known Member
This was what I was trying to say only delivered better. Can I send you my points so you can present them for me?
PalmettoHawkFan
Well-Known Member
TLDR warning.
Some general thoughts about Woody, Gabe, maturation, and craft:
Woody's strength: he is bigger than last year, but he is still a gangly 19-year-old. When he picks up a cheap foul, or when he has problems finishing, it's largely a matter or two things: first, his slow footspeed, which is largely genetic, though somewhat trainable; second, his lower-body and core musculature hasn't caught up with his frame. Making an explosive movement in the post requires considerable leg, glute, and core strength, as well as balance. Woody is pretty coordinated for a seven footer. However, he is not strong, and won't be for another year or two. Muscle hypertrophy takes time. His upper body is also not yet developed, and this hurts his ability to finish in traffic. If you watch him, he knows what to do, he's practiced the footwork, he just doesn't have the physical maturity to do it against D1 players. Time will fix that.
Gabe is physically ready for the NBA. He's older, and has matured faster. Why is he the lesser player right now?
Easy. Woody's thousands of hours of high school and AAU ball. Gladwell's 10,000 hours thesis has been critiqued (but not soundly refuted), and his argument bears mentioning with the Gabe vs. Woody debate. Woody has been exposed to good coaching since he was a middle schooler. By his senior year, he'll be getting near that 10,000 hours of guided practice needed to achieve excellence (and if he makes the NBA, he'll need more work to take college excellence to the next level). Excellence, for the purposes of this argument, is the ability to perform at an all-conference level.
Gabe, on the other hand, started playing basketball at 14, and didn't have access to good coaching until he hit Sunrise Academy. With continued good coaching and a lot of work, he could be a backup NBA center when he's 24 or 25. If he has a Euro league coach who can develop him. If not, he plateaus his senior year at Iowa.
The odds are better for Woody to become a quality center because he's learned the game, and simply needs a year or two of physical development. Gabe, on the other hand, needs to spend four more years working diligently at mastering the craft of post play.
Some general thoughts about Woody, Gabe, maturation, and craft:
Woody's strength: he is bigger than last year, but he is still a gangly 19-year-old. When he picks up a cheap foul, or when he has problems finishing, it's largely a matter or two things: first, his slow footspeed, which is largely genetic, though somewhat trainable; second, his lower-body and core musculature hasn't caught up with his frame. Making an explosive movement in the post requires considerable leg, glute, and core strength, as well as balance. Woody is pretty coordinated for a seven footer. However, he is not strong, and won't be for another year or two. Muscle hypertrophy takes time. His upper body is also not yet developed, and this hurts his ability to finish in traffic. If you watch him, he knows what to do, he's practiced the footwork, he just doesn't have the physical maturity to do it against D1 players. Time will fix that.
Gabe is physically ready for the NBA. He's older, and has matured faster. Why is he the lesser player right now?
Easy. Woody's thousands of hours of high school and AAU ball. Gladwell's 10,000 hours thesis has been critiqued (but not soundly refuted), and his argument bears mentioning with the Gabe vs. Woody debate. Woody has been exposed to good coaching since he was a middle schooler. By his senior year, he'll be getting near that 10,000 hours of guided practice needed to achieve excellence (and if he makes the NBA, he'll need more work to take college excellence to the next level). Excellence, for the purposes of this argument, is the ability to perform at an all-conference level.
Gabe, on the other hand, started playing basketball at 14, and didn't have access to good coaching until he hit Sunrise Academy. With continued good coaching and a lot of work, he could be a backup NBA center when he's 24 or 25. If he has a Euro league coach who can develop him. If not, he plateaus his senior year at Iowa.
The odds are better for Woody to become a quality center because he's learned the game, and simply needs a year or two of physical development. Gabe, on the other hand, needs to spend four more years working diligently at mastering the craft of post play.
Knight78
Well-Known Member
Anyone who watches the games and knows basketball knows that while Gabe is more athletic, Woody is the better basketball player. Woody is in the correct position defensively about twice as often as Gabe. Gabe likes to block shots; nothing wrong with that, but blocking a shot is a defensive last resort - it means all other efforts have failed and all you have left is to try to swat the ball without fouling the shooter. Woody, on the other hand, makes the offensive player work harder to get that shot and that shot is not necessarily where the offensive player wants to shoot it from. There's a lot to defense that never shows up in stats; in fact, the stats that DO show up for defense that people point to in order to make their argument that a player is good on defense (steals and blocked shots) are usually due to the player being out of position.
Look at it this way: Greg Kelser was a MUCH better athlete than Larry Bird - it was evident in the NCAA Finals when MSU beat ISU. But would you rather have Larry Bird on your team or Greg Kelser?
Look at it this way: Greg Kelser was a MUCH better athlete than Larry Bird - it was evident in the NCAA Finals when MSU beat ISU. But would you rather have Larry Bird on your team or Greg Kelser?
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