When Fran said let's get mad again...

Cyclones17 said:
Size is important if you don't have a high skill level which Bryce does not.
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Bryce was tied, I believe, for 3rd or 4th on the team in rebounding. Somewhere in the 3 boards per game. For his size, he does well in that dept.

Just so we are straight here, you think Cartwright is mediocre, correct? He was All Big Ten HM last year. But I want to be sure you are definitely saying you think he is a mediocre PG.
 
storminspank said:
Bryce was tied, I believe, for 3rd or 4th on the team in rebounding. Somewhere in the 3 boards per game. For his size, he does well in that dept.

Just so we are straight here, you think Cartwright is mediocre, correct? He was All Big Ten HM last year. But I want to be sure you are definitely saying you think he is a mediocre PG.
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Yes I am saying he is mediocre. He is a backup PG for BCS level teams. Hell the guy backed up Cully Payne for the start of the season as if beating him out was hard to do.

I've asked before and I will ask again. Which team last year would have traded their PG for Cartwright. Answer is zero
 
storminspank said:
Bryce was tied, I believe, for 3rd or 4th on the team in rebounding. Somewhere in the 3 boards per game. For his size, he does well in that dept.

Just so we are straight here, you think Cartwright is mediocre, correct? He was All Big Ten HM last year. But I want to be sure you are definitely saying you think he is a mediocre PG.
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Maybe 17 is fighting back against those bashing us. Its the only explanation I have. I dont see him being terrible at basketball.
 
Cyclones17 said:
Yes I am saying he is mediocre. He is a backup PG for BCS level teams. Hell the guy backed up Cully Payne for the start of the season as if beating him out was hard to do.

I've asked before and I will ask again. Which team last year would have traded their PG for Cartwright. Answer is zero
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I assume you are talking B1G only.

If so...

Minnesota.
Indiana.
 
Cyclones17 said:
Yes Big 10. And Minnesota only makes that trade after Al Nolen gets hurt. Otherwise there is a 0% chance that they make the trade.

Indiana? Maybe.
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I guess Cartwright technically was chosen over any of the B1G PGs that didn't make All-Big Ten like he did.
 
I'll stick up for Cartwright here. When he was first inserted into the lineup after Payne went down, I thought he was terrible. However, he really settled in and was a big part of the team getting better after a disastrous non-con schedule.

He's more than serviceable. Not great, but a very competent PG.

And, Stormin, I think that things like vision and feel for the game are Intangibles! :)
 
Bryce Cartwright is a good 6th man on a decent major conference team, nothing more. You are basing his worth on total assists, which is not a logical evaluation. You need to look further into his stats to determine his value.

Efficiency (Assists:turnover) Bryce had 1.78. He was worse than: McCamey (Illinois) 2.08
Nolen (Minn) 1.79
Darius Morris (Michigan) 2.22
Jordan Taylor (Wisconsin) 4.2
Tim Frazier (PSU) 2.1
Craft (OSU) 2.1

Not only is he inefficient handling the ball, he is a very poor shooter, not a mediocre shooter like you claimed.

Look at his PPS totals in comparison to other Big Ten guards from last season:

Cartwright: 0.99
Battle (PSU): 1.29
Lucas (Mich St): 1.28
Morris (Mich) 1.28
McCamey (Ill) 1.36
Taylor (Wis) 1.38
Craft (OSU) 1.42
Frazier (PSU) 1.3
Nolen (Minn) 1.51


You need to at least do one of these two items well to be a decent guard in this league. You, like ISU fans with Garrett vastly overrate him.

Garrett had a PPS of 1.07 and A/T of 1.84. He is overrated by his fans but still better than Cartwright.
 
smoot27 said:
Bryce Cartwright is a good 6th man on a decent major conference team, nothing more. You are basing his worth on total assists, which is not a logical evaluation. You need to look further into his stats to determine his value.

Efficiency (Assists:turnover) Bryce had 1.78. He was worse than: McCamey (Illinois) 2.08
Nolen (Minn) 1.79
Darius Morris (Michigan) 2.22
Jordan Taylor (Wisconsin) 4.2
Tim Frazier (PSU) 2.1
Craft (OSU) 2.1

Not only is he inefficient handling the ball, he is a very poor shooter, not a mediocre shooter like you claimed.

Look at his PPS totals in comparison to other Big Ten guards from last season:

Cartwright: 0.99
Battle (PSU): 1.29
Lucas (Mich St): 1.28
Morris (Mich) 1.28
McCamey (Ill) 1.36
Taylor (Wis) 1.38
Craft (OSU) 1.42
Frazier (PSU) 1.3
Nolen (Minn) 1.51


You need to at least do one of these two items well to be a decent guard in this league. You, like ISU fans with Garrett vastly overrate him.

Garrett had a PPS of 1.07 and A/T of 1.84. He is overrated by his fans but still better than Cartwright.
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Good stuff.

I will say, though, that both Garrett and Cartwright possess something that both teams needed last year: the ability to get by their man and into the lane, creating opportunities and breaking down the defenses. Neither team had someone besides those two that could do that. It doesn't always result in an assist or points, but it makes the defense scramble, reset, and leads to good things.
 
CyChamp said:
Good stuff.

I will say, though, that both Garrett and Cartwright possess something that both teams needed last year: the ability to get by their man and into the lane, creating opportunities and breaking down the defenses. Neither team had someone besides those two that could do that. It doesn't always result in an assist or points, but it makes the defense scramble, reset, and leads to good things.
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Part of the reason for Cartwright's undeserved praise is due to having Cully Payne the year before. Payne had a PPS of 1.09 and A/T of 1.2 in 09-10.

Chauncey Leslie was not a good ball distributer (1.16), but at least he could score with some efficiency (1.35).

Horner was the best pg we've had in a while. PPS(1.23) A/T (1.99)

If you recall, Horner was the 3rd best player on that team behind Brunner and Haluska. Coincidently, this was the last decent Iowa team. This is a good indicator that Cartwright should be no better than the 4th best player on the team for Iowa to be successful (unless we find a Lebron James sitting around). Right now, Bryce is our 2nd to 3rd best player.
 
Cartwright is much better than what Smoot is giving him credit for. Do you think maybe some of his turnovers was a result of not committing until mid summer? He didn't even play in the PTL last year did he? I think a lot of his turnovers were a result of not even being a part of the program until almost the start of the school year. Furthermore, you have to tie in the fact that the rest of the team was trying to transition from a slow methodical approach, to the uptempo style that Fran wanted. I think we all seen, especially through the first half of the year that the team seemed uncomfortable, out of whack so to speak running uptempo. Bryce had to adjust to his teammates in that regard as well. That, and mostly that is the reason for his turnover numbers imo. You'll see one of the best PG's in the Big Ten this year. He did garner some all conference honors last year didn't he?
 
PatrickAdamovicz said:
Cartwright is much better than what Smoot is giving him credit for. Do you think maybe some of his turnovers was a result of not committing until mid summer? He didn't even play in the PTL last year did he? I think a lot of his turnovers were a result of not even being a part of the program until almost the start of the school year. Furthermore, you have to tie in the fact that the rest of the team was trying to transition from a slow methodical approach, to the uptempo style that Fran wanted. I think we all seen, especially through the first half of the year that the team seemed uncomfortable, out of whack so to speak running uptempo. Bryce had to adjust to his teammates in that regard as well. That, and mostly that is the reason for his turnover numbers imo. You'll see one of the best PG's in the Big Ten this year. He did garner some all conference honors last year didn't he?
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I'm not arguing in future tense or that he can't be good next year. My comments are objective, stats based evaluations as opposed to the subjective arguments HN posters continue to use to show they are Hawkeye homers and all the players are better than they really are.

Maybe Cartwright will be better and your claims could be true. Based on his past experience even before he became a Hawk would lead me to believe otherwise.

Bryce @ Fresno: PPS (1.08) A/T (1.60)

I don't have some underlying hatred for Cartwright. I just don't believe he is an A player for a major conference. I think he was worth the scholarship and would make a solid backup player/change of pace pg.
 
smoot27 said:
Do you disagree with my assessment or care to discuss some statistics that show otherwise? Or are you limiting this to sarcasm?
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I was curious what those number would be in conference play only.

11 PPG in conference play
He was 1.1 PPS in conference (225 Pts on 205 FGA)
he had 6 APG in conference play
was (1.89) Assist to TO (123 A to 65 TO) in conference.

Is that below some of the others you listed? Sure. Did they play on as poor a team as Bryce? No they didn't, they had other options to go to.

He did just fine, and the thing is he was SOOOOOO much better in conference play as he got his feet under him. He will be even better this year, as he has a whole year in the system.

Do I think he is the best PG in the big10? No I don't, and I don't think that is what anyone is saying. Yet for a guy who just came in, he did pretty well in conference play.
 
Um, Jeff was not the third best player on that team. Everything ran through him and when the team needed a big shot, he would hit it.
 
Smoot, what about statistics that capture a player's defensive value to his team as well? If you are basing your entire analysis on PPS and A/T, aren't we getting a rather incomplete picture of that player's worth?

I don't have any stats to offer. But I am suggesting that all stats can be attributed to contributions to helping one's team score, and contributions to helping one's team keep the opposition from scoring.

It seems you are neglecting half of the picture here.
 
deanvogs said:
I was curious what those number would be in conference play only.

11 PPG in conference play
He was 1.1 PPS in conference (225 Pts on 205 FGA)
he had 6 APG in conference play
was (1.89) Assist to TO (123 A to 65 TO) in conference.

Is that below some of the others you listed? Sure. Did they play on as poor a team as Bryce? No they didn't, they had other options to go to.

He did just fine, and the thing is he was SOOOOOO much better in conference play as he got his feet under him. He will be even better this year, as he has a whole year in the system.

Do I think he is the best PG in the big10? No I don't, and I don't think that is what anyone is saying. Yet for a guy who just came in, he did pretty well in conference play.
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His numbers were slightly better in conference play, but to say that 1.1 PPS and 1.89 A:T are quality starter numbers would be false.

I get that you don't think he is the best, but do you think he was even better than any of the following:

Al Nolen
Darius Morris
Aaron Craft
Lewis Jackson
Jordan Taylor
Talor Batte
Tim Frazier

I would take all the above over Cartwright if I was building a team. I would refrain from using ppg and total assists #'s from debating. They don't show the true value. That's like using total HR's in baseball to determine a good hitter. Would you call a guy a good hitter if he hit 25 homers while batting .200 and striking out 200 times? OPS is a much better stat.

The conference award is a very subjective argument as well. You would have thought Adrian Clayborn had a great season based on this.
 
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CyChamp said:
And, Stormin, I think that things like vision and feel for the game are Intangibles! :)
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:)

I'll be honest. I had them down as Intangibles, but then I put other stuff in there so I took off the "In" because I was thinking intangibles are more like passion, attitude, etc... Long story short - I didn't know what the hell to call it! ;)
 
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