Poll: Who's Going To Win Tuesday?
- Thread starter Fryowa
- Start date
judzeehawk
Well-Known Member
Yo do understand Pfizer isn't included with Operation Warp Speed.
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
He's still not technically president-elect.
kicker22
Well-Known Member
I did find it hilarious that they had to bring that to the forefront shortly after Pence tried to take credit for it.
I too am not a political guy. I probably should do more research but its hard to find any media that is trustworthy.
One of the things I do look at is who does China want to win? That is my concern with Biden getting elected. We did exactly what they wanted.
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I was wrong on this. I thought they would wait a week or so. But its hard to respect the intelligence of anyone who didn't see #2 coming several months ago if Biden won.
Not only was there a vaccine breakthrough announcement yesterday. Now there is also an announcement of a treatment option that got emergency FDA clearance.
I'm just happy a decent and respectful guy won the electoral college. The Trump time as President is the most chaotic and despicable display of leadership that I have witnessed in my lifetime. Our forefathers warned us of leaders like Trump, and to our benefit, drafted a constitution that has given us enough protection that he has not been able to ruin the Republic in 4 years, or get elected to 4 more years, although on both counts it was too close for comfort. James Madison said it well:
" If man is not fit to govern himself, how can he be fit to govern someone else?"
" If man is not fit to govern himself, how can he be fit to govern someone else?"
Luftgekuehlt67
Well-Known Member
My advice for the Trump campaign (not that they've asked for it) is: be careful what you wish for.
Now, obviously, their "investigation" is partisan in nature - as you would expect, they are looking specifically for fraud that is of a nature that would benefit their cause and it's their right to do so. That said, there is nothing to guarantee that any cheating or fraud that may exist is itself partisan in nature.
Much was made in the media of Trump instructing his followers to "vote twice". If you take the time to filter out the noise, what he was actually trying to instruct his followers to do was to ensure that, if they had voted by mail, to double check by/on election day to make sure their ballot had been accepted and, if not, vote in person. Prudent advice but, in my opinion, I think the messaging was somewhat muddled and I don't find it a stretch to imagine some voters being led into actually voting twice in their confusion. Obviously, given the rigorous procedures in place, that would have been easy to catch on election day but, if you are of the mind that the system is full of holes, who's to say some of these hypothetical Trump double votes couldn't have gotten through?
Also, purely anecdotal (although, to be fair, that's all we have at this point), we have concrete evidence of Trump voters double voting. For example:
I'm not saying you couldn't find examples of Democrats double voting nor am I saying this behavior is rampant on the Trump side. Rather, I am only saying if your personal opinion on the matter of election fraud is in any way being colored by anything remotely resembling "yup, this is the sort of thing THOSE PEOPLE would try!" where "THOSE PEOPLE" == Democrats/liberals, you should slow up and entertain the possibility that, through no fault of your own, you may have been pulled down into a highly partisan rabbit hole.
The Democratic party in the state of Iowa is willing to "thumbs up" vote tallies from literally dozens of far-flung, heavily red leaning rural counties. That's not because they trust the GOP to tabulate the votes in those counties, it's because smart people have taken the time (and logistical headaches) to make sure controls are in place to ensure accurate, fair results. Likewise, the Michigan GOP isn't going to go thumbs up on the vote tallies from Wayne County because they trust the Democrats. They also have smart people who have taken the time and effort to overcome a different set of logistical challenges to make sure the counts are fair. These controls have been in place for many years and represent The System that, in back to back elections, put Barack Obama and then Donald Trump into office. Oh yeah, America is a weird place for sure, but it has nothing to do with our elections being rigged.
That's my plea for sanity in this small little corner of the world. My near term concern is that I believe money is already playing an outsized role in our democracy. I don't want to see an arms race situation where it costs tens of millions of dollars to win a presidential election and then tens of millions more to essentially re-certify election results in state courts coast to coast. Beyond not being a good use of our time and energy, it just moves the bar further in favor of deep pocketed donors and away from individual voters (and this goes for both sides of the political spectrum).
My longer term concern is that, if we as a society are truly this concerned (despite any concrete evidence on a scale to raise such concerns) that our election system is so full of holes so as to allow widespread fraud, what we're about to witness unfolding over the coming weeks is really not the way to go about it (i.e. a highly partisan investigation in the wake of a lost election). We've had, well, essentially forever to review and implement the controls to ensure fairness...I think it's eminently reasonable to ask why it's all suddenly coming to a head now.
Now, obviously, their "investigation" is partisan in nature - as you would expect, they are looking specifically for fraud that is of a nature that would benefit their cause and it's their right to do so. That said, there is nothing to guarantee that any cheating or fraud that may exist is itself partisan in nature.
Much was made in the media of Trump instructing his followers to "vote twice". If you take the time to filter out the noise, what he was actually trying to instruct his followers to do was to ensure that, if they had voted by mail, to double check by/on election day to make sure their ballot had been accepted and, if not, vote in person. Prudent advice but, in my opinion, I think the messaging was somewhat muddled and I don't find it a stretch to imagine some voters being led into actually voting twice in their confusion. Obviously, given the rigorous procedures in place, that would have been easy to catch on election day but, if you are of the mind that the system is full of holes, who's to say some of these hypothetical Trump double votes couldn't have gotten through?
Also, purely anecdotal (although, to be fair, that's all we have at this point), we have concrete evidence of Trump voters double voting. For example:
Iowa woman charged with voting twice for Trump pleads guilty
An Iowa woman charged with voting twice for Donald Trump last fall has pleaded guilty to election misconduct.
www.desmoinesregister.com
I'm not saying you couldn't find examples of Democrats double voting nor am I saying this behavior is rampant on the Trump side. Rather, I am only saying if your personal opinion on the matter of election fraud is in any way being colored by anything remotely resembling "yup, this is the sort of thing THOSE PEOPLE would try!" where "THOSE PEOPLE" == Democrats/liberals, you should slow up and entertain the possibility that, through no fault of your own, you may have been pulled down into a highly partisan rabbit hole.
The Democratic party in the state of Iowa is willing to "thumbs up" vote tallies from literally dozens of far-flung, heavily red leaning rural counties. That's not because they trust the GOP to tabulate the votes in those counties, it's because smart people have taken the time (and logistical headaches) to make sure controls are in place to ensure accurate, fair results. Likewise, the Michigan GOP isn't going to go thumbs up on the vote tallies from Wayne County because they trust the Democrats. They also have smart people who have taken the time and effort to overcome a different set of logistical challenges to make sure the counts are fair. These controls have been in place for many years and represent The System that, in back to back elections, put Barack Obama and then Donald Trump into office. Oh yeah, America is a weird place for sure, but it has nothing to do with our elections being rigged.
That's my plea for sanity in this small little corner of the world. My near term concern is that I believe money is already playing an outsized role in our democracy. I don't want to see an arms race situation where it costs tens of millions of dollars to win a presidential election and then tens of millions more to essentially re-certify election results in state courts coast to coast. Beyond not being a good use of our time and energy, it just moves the bar further in favor of deep pocketed donors and away from individual voters (and this goes for both sides of the political spectrum).
My longer term concern is that, if we as a society are truly this concerned (despite any concrete evidence on a scale to raise such concerns) that our election system is so full of holes so as to allow widespread fraud, what we're about to witness unfolding over the coming weeks is really not the way to go about it (i.e. a highly partisan investigation in the wake of a lost election). We've had, well, essentially forever to review and implement the controls to ensure fairness...I think it's eminently reasonable to ask why it's all suddenly coming to a head now.
WinOneThisCentury
Well-Known Member
Just when you think the Trump administration couldn't be more pathetic...they overachieve. He's been calling the Democrats idiots for four years, and now he thinks they were geniuses in orchestrating election fraud that have them winning red states, and winning several close races in other states, losing house seats overall, and losing the senate. Yeah...they orchestrated the losses in the house and senate to throw off their scent. LOL.
If Trump's idiot kids don't wake you up...or Rudy Giuliani giving a press conference at a Landscaping Company in the middle of nowhere doesn't clue you in...you are beyond help.
Trump is cornered...he loses the immunity of the Presidency and he's going to be in all kinds of legal jeopardy...taxes, money laundering, etc. Just wait, when he moves to pardoning himself and his sons...and Ivanka. Well...if you pardon someone...you admit their guilt. This should be interesting...but the Trump legions will just keep eating up the manure...and get in line for his rallies. The law and order President. LOL.
If Trump's idiot kids don't wake you up...or Rudy Giuliani giving a press conference at a Landscaping Company in the middle of nowhere doesn't clue you in...you are beyond help.
Trump is cornered...he loses the immunity of the Presidency and he's going to be in all kinds of legal jeopardy...taxes, money laundering, etc. Just wait, when he moves to pardoning himself and his sons...and Ivanka. Well...if you pardon someone...you admit their guilt. This should be interesting...but the Trump legions will just keep eating up the manure...and get in line for his rallies. The law and order President. LOL.
Luftgekuehlt67
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, I don't think as a reasonable person you can completely rule this out. Definitely something to keep an eye on.
On the other hand, given what we've gleaned about Trump's probable psych profile over the last 4 years, I don't think you can rule out this being the combination of:
1) idle vindictiveness and
2) seeking to surround himself with "loyal" (and thus comforting, reassuring) figures
WinOneThisCentury
Well-Known Member
Yes...I'm hopeful that the Republicans will say something if he starts gunning down protesters, declaring martial law, or something along those lines. Then again, Lindsay Graham would probably be saying, "you know, Trump has the right to use the military against his own people, I mean, some of these people are black...and they cheat and are on welfare and stuff." Lindsay Graham is the biggest piece of horse manure on the planet. This guy, if he was leading a platoon, would definitely be killed...by his own troops.
The most amazing thing for me is the extreme hunger of so many Americans to consume falsehoods that are spewed by the Trump admin and all of his many supporters in Congress. They would stand in a 10 mile line, jump off a cliff to their demise, just to get a whiff of one of these lies. It is quite an extraordinary thing we are seeing in this age. Without falsehoods, their platform and body of work would be miniscule.
HuckFinn
Well-Known Member
Well. That is one of the most sad posts I have read lately. Truth hurts.
Luftgekuehlt67
Well-Known Member
The reality is, Trump is a highly charismatic, effective leader. Mostly due to the effects of social media, we live in a time and place where people are highly prone to, at the minimum, falling into an echo chamber and, at worse, into a bottomless rabbit hole of misinformation. From my own experience, it takes a lot of discipline to avoid those pitfalls. For myself, I'm extremely liberal. In addition to holding long standing and deeply held liberal opinions I, as you would expect, associate with many other liberal cohorts in my daily life. The allure of falling completely into that echo chamber or even rabbit hole is very strong - so strong, I've made a conscious effort to groom my news sources based on a "media bias" chart. Personally, I try to stick to the AP as much as possible to be safe and I always make sure to cross reference any links people send me with the media bias chart. That doesn't mean I don't read them, it just means I try to be educated on the source's trustworthiness and relative bias.
Do you know what would make this much, much harder? If there were a highly charismatic liberal leader in a position of authority who, on a daily basis, was making an effort to intentionally pull me down into the rabbit hole and funneling me towards increasingly more biased news sources. For example, I see the chatter today is about how Fox News is too liberal (!!!) and we should be watching NewsMax. Fox News, due to their bias, is already just barely hanging on to be considering "news" by a thread. I shudder to think of moving in an even more biased direction (e.g. NewsMax, OANN, etc). It's not healthy for our democracy.
HuckFinn
Well-Known Member
Interesting analysis. Good read.
judzeehawk
Well-Known Member
I heard someone describe Commander Bone Spur as a modern day Jim Jones. Wow!
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
Yeah, true, but underlying this is the assumption that the main line news stations aren't themselves a rabbit hole of misinformation.
There once was a time where liberals generally would have stopped and asked themselves "is it good for our democracy to have a media that has basically consolidated down to under a dozen sources, all of which are owned by oligarchs or multinational corporations and all of which are reliant on maybe 10 dozen other huge corporations for advertising revenue to be the arbiters of the news?" and answered that question with a resounding "no."
The old line media is an existential crisis with virtually all local newspapers becoming Gannett wire reprint rags and cable channels shattered by falling ratings and cord cutting. As these "news sources" stretch further down the Bell Curve in search of labor as their economic models crumble, their quality is only going to continue to go down. There's some Mark Twain quote about the newspaper, I don't recall it off the top of my head. You should look it up.
Yes it is sad for America. Just a few years back I was and behaved like an independent. Gave all a chance on their character, their plans and policies. Unfortunately that is not the case anymore. And the demise of this once great party (we need balance and competition of ideas) is just not good for them or for America. I surely hope whatever has infected them, can be inoculated and that they can begin to heal themselves.
