Playing out of position

[Hawkfnntn]

A few years ago I would agree that Baer isn’t a 4, but in today’s game he most certainly is.

Duncan Robinson primarily plays the 4 for Michigan. He’s 6’8/215. Baer is 6’7/205. Vince Edwards and Lamar Stevens both 6’8/225. Maryland played a lot of the season with 4 “guards” basically asking Heurter 6’7/190 to play the 4. Baer would be a little undersized at the 4, but certainly not overmatched.

I guess I just don't consider that because he'd at some points in games be the 4th tallest/largest player on the floor that that makes him a 4. Playing small ball doesn't make him a 4 by just some defacto because you have 5 guys out there you have to number them. In those situations your playing 3 guards and 2 forwards. Or 4 guards and 1 forward just depending. Can Baer guard any of these players just on Iowa, Cook, Garza, Nunge or even Pemsl? The 4 players that spent the most time at the 4 who are actual 4s would destroy Baer. Because Baer isn't one. That's like saying JBo is a 3. That glove don't fit

 

[NikeHawk21]

I guess I just don't consider that because he'd at some points in games be the 4th tallest/largest player on the floor that that makes him a 4. Playing small ball doesn't make him a 4 by just some defacto because you have 5 guys out there you have to number them. In those situations your playing 3 guards and 2 forwards. Or 4 guards and 1 forward just depending. Can Baer guard any of these players just on Iowa, Cook, Garza, Nunge or even Pemsl? The 4 players that spent the most time at the 4 who are actual 4s would destroy Baer. Because Baer isn't one. That's like saying JBo is a 3. That glove don't fit

Those guys on Iowa are 5s not 4s in my opinion anyway. Can Baer guard the average four on most teams in the B1G? Absolutely, plus we are talking about an off the bench role.

 

[PCHawk]

This is crazy talk. Taking average players who have obvious holes in their games, and using those holes to argue that they need to play a different position. One guy says Pemsl is a 5 because he can't shoot and isn't quick. Another guy says Pemsl is a 4 because he's too short to be a 5. Both are right and both are wrong. If you want to point out flaws to prove what position someone shouldn't play, you can do it all day with practically every player who isn't awesome.

 

[DDThompson]

This is crazy talk. Taking average players who have obvious holes in their games, and using those holes to argue that they need to play a different position. One guy says Pemsl is a 5 because he can't shoot and isn't quick. Another guy says Pemsl is a 4 because he's too short to be a 5. Both are right and both are wrong. If you want to point out flaws to prove what position someone shouldn't play, you can do it all day with practically every player who isn't awesome.

Pemsl definitely not at the 1.
Opposing PGs would have to take a couple of extra dribbles to get around him but his turnover ratio — yikes.

 

[PCHawk]

Pemsl definitely not at the 1.
Opposing PGs would have to take a couple of extra dribbles to get around him but his turnover ratio — yikes.

Bohannon's not a 1 because he can't guard the 1. Bohannon is a 1 because he passes the ball well.

Baer isn't a 3 because he can't handle the ball well. Baer is a 3 because he's not big enough to be a 4.

Cook isn't a 4 because he can't shoot the 3. Cook is a 4 because every other part of his game is what a 4 does.

Pemsl isn't a 4 because he can't score outside 3 feet. Pemsl is a 4 because he's too short to play the 5.

Dailey isn't a 1 and Nunge isn't a 3 (yet). Other than that, everything else is just nit picking on personal preferences.

 

[lightning1]

I would argue with anyone that Pemsl is a 5. He is about the same size as Nick Ward and Derek Pardon who are successful 5s in this league. He can’t shoot a midrange shot and he can’t defend 4s due to his lack of footspeed. He’s clearly a 5.

You can play the 5 at 6'8. You've got to be physical, able to shoot from mid range and you better be above average athletic.

 

[DDThompson]

I think Cook DOES have the athleticism and foot speed to keep up with most of the 4 men in the league. Something else is missing.... either technique, desire/motivation or practice reps. I'm not close enough to the program to say which with certainty. I've watched a lot of basketball this past weekend. I saw many post players with a lot less quickness and size than Cook playing very solid defense within the team concept. I have no doubt Cook could do the same if that were the expectation and the proper techniques were repped in practice.

This. Can say that about most of them.

Everyone says this team has slow foot speed. You’re going to look like you have slow feet when you have poor technique.

Cook has quick enough feet for the offensive end so on the defensive end it’s desire and technique—he stops moving his feet after a couple of slides. The entire team does.

 

[lightning1]

Our issues are due to a combination of things for sure and playing guys out of their natural spots is certainly one of them. For the fun of it my ideal spot for these guys are

JBo 1/2
CM 1/2

Moss 2. He doesn't mix it up inside the 3 pt line enough to be a 3 to me. Something I'd like to see more of actually

Dailey 2/1/3 I prefer him at the two. He's better at catching and shooting than he seems to be off the dribble. I'd prefer he stay at 2 most of the time

Ellingson 2

Baer 3 (I see some suggesting he's a 4 and that's nuts. He's not nearly big/strong enough for that) If you think JBo isn't a 1 then Baer sure as heck isn't a 4 because he can't/don't post anyone up ever and he can't guard 4s at all. Not even a little bit. And he's not a good enough ball handler/shooter to be a 2 so he's a 3 to me

Wagner is a 4 trapped in a 3s body. He just doesn't have the skills to be a 3.

Nunge is a stretch 4 in every sense of the term. He might have the potential to play more 3 down the road but he's not there now.

Pemsl is a 4. An old school one. Kinda like the pre Karl Malone, Barkley ones before they developed mid range jumpers and just played with back to the basket around the hoop. He can't shoot past 10 feet and brings little to the game besides setting screens and the occasional hoop inside and occasional hustle play. I guess he's got more of a 5 mans game. He's just not nearly tall/big enough (since he lost weight) to play it.

Kreiner is a 4/5 I'd like to see more of him he's kind of a tougher guy for me to gauge. When he's on he's a pretty good player. I'm not sure 5 suits him all that well but I'm not sure he's athletic enough to play the 4 exclusively. He's a bit of a tweener between those two spots but for the amount of mins he gets that's alright

Cook is a 5/4 due to his lack of shooting touch. Although he's got potential I think to be so much more. I think the only thing really holding him back is the mental side of the game. He can handle the ball. He can fly up and down the court and make hustle plays. He just makes the wrong play too often with the ball and doesn't hustle often enough. He should be dominating on the glass. One on one in the post with the ball he's unstoppable at this level pretty much. He can get a good look whenever he wants. I wish Reggie Evans could tutor him for a summer on rebounding, D and hustling. Then he has to get better at the team side of playing the game at both ends

Garza 4/5. Note how I flip he and Cook. I think when they are on the floor together (which often they are) That's what fits them. Garza can face up and shoot on guys. And has a good feel for when to do it and take a guy off the dribble/post up. I would bring up these two only in the context of when they were on the floor together but David Robinson and Tim Duncan. Timmy was able to shoot those 15 footers from the baseline and off the glass from the elbow pretty much day 1 (as a 4 yr college player his game was as polished as any big guys has ever been day 1 in the modern NBA) But Robinson was more of the traditional 5 man although he did stretch his game out some the older he got too.

Baer has the skill set and relatively low athleticism of a 4 and the size of a 3. That's the problem.

 

[lightning1]

Bohannon's not a 1 because he can't guard the 1. Bohannon is a 1 because he passes the ball well.

Baer isn't a 3 because he can't handle the ball well. Baer is a 3 because he's not big enough to be a 4.

Cook isn't a 4 because he can't shoot the 3. Cook is a 4 because every other part of his game is what a 4 does.

Pemsl isn't a 4 because he can't score outside 3 feet. Pemsl is a 4 because he's too short to play the 5.

Dailey isn't a 1 and Nunge isn't a 3 (yet). Other than that, everything else is just nit picking on personal preferences.

1). Agreed
2). Agreed
3). Not even close! He averages 16.5 ppg in conference play as a SO. How many ppg should a BIG PF average?
4). Agreed.
5a) Agreed
5b). Never will be a 3

 

[DDThompson]

Bohannon's not a 1 because he can't guard the 1. Bohannon is a 1 because he passes the ball well.

Baer isn't a 3 because he can't handle the ball well. Baer is a 3 because he's not big enough to be a 4.

Cook isn't a 4 because he can't shoot the 3. Cook is a 4 because every other part of his game is what a 4 does.

Pemsl isn't a 4 because he can't score outside 3 feet. Pemsl is a 4 because he's too short to play the 5.

Dailey isn't a 1 and Nunge isn't a 3 (yet). Other than that, everything else is just nit picking on personal preferences.

Nice!

I wonder if you can do that with the ‘18 Champ?

I wonder what happens when a coach decides to play a 1 and a 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 5?

Does the 1 guard the other team’s 4?
or do the 1 the 2 and the 3 move up a number to defend out of position?

 

[lightning1]

This is crazy talk. Taking average players who have obvious holes in their games, and using those holes to argue that they need to play a different position. One guy says Pemsl is a 5 because he can't shoot and isn't quick. Another guy says Pemsl is a 4 because he's too short to be a 5. Both are right and both are wrong. If you want to point out flaws to prove what position someone shouldn't play, you can do it all day with practically every player who isn't awesome.

I base my opinion on each player's best chance for success at BOTH ends of the floor. That isn't the same thing as saying these players, at those positions, gives Iowa the best chance to win games, FYI.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

I think when describing a player's abilities, calling them a "stretch" player refers to their ability to play offense effectively farther from the basket. Thus a "5" is a traditional back to the basket 5 who plays only in the lane and a "stretch 5" is effective handling the ball and shooting from well beyond the lane. I would consider Haas from Purdue a 5 but Garza a stretch 5. (When Garza made his first three point attempt this year, he made more than Haas has attempted in his career)

Good point.

 

[deanvogs]

@lightning1 is spot on in this thread. Way, way, way too many people being played out of position. When you play a guy our of position it is a detriment to the team, and it isn't fair to the player asking them to do what they simply aren't capable of doing with their individual skill set.

The reason Fran has to do this is because of a complete fail in recruiting for 2 years. '14 and '15 were nearly a complete and total waste of like 9 players. If he could have just gotten 2 good guards from those 2 classes, this is an entirely different team. That is the thing, in BB you don't have to hit home runs with every recruit. If you get 1 good/great player and a good/solid contributor a year, you can succeed.

 

[PCHawk]

Nice!

I wonder if you can do that with the ‘18 Champ?

I wonder what happens when a coach decides to play a 1 and a 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 5?

Does the 1 guard the other team’s 4?
or do the 1 the 2 and the 3 move up a number to defend out of position?

I couldn't because I don't know the team well enough. But I'm sure a fan of the team could.

 

[SteveGarvey1]

@lightning1 is spot on in this thread. Way, way, way too many people being played out of position. When you play a guy our of position it is a detriment to the team, and it isn't fair to the player asking them to do what they simply aren't capable of doing with their individual skill set.

The reason Fran has to do this is because of a complete fail in recruiting for 2 years. '14 and '15 were nearly a complete and total waste of like 9 players. If he could have just gotten 2 good guards from those 2 classes, this is an entirely different team. That is the thing, in BB you don't have to hit home runs with every recruit. If you get 1 good/great player and a good/solid contributor a year, you can succeed.

Fran whiffed on guards recently and it's like instead he's just taken the best guys he could get, which were bigs.

 

[lightning1]

I don't think Fran could get good point guards to come to Iowa with Connor committed. That's my honest opinion and it's not really Fran's fault. It's not like his kids are scrubs. I know if I was recruiting a PG against Fran, I'd absolutely use it as a tool to convince the recruit that Fran will play his son over said recruit. And I'd have a valid argument. According to sources in the program, Christian Williams was getting 3rd team practice reps at PG, with Connor getting 2nd steam reps. CW had put 2 years into the program and was bumped by the coach's kid. And rightly so, IMO, because I believe Connor is the better player. But every coach will use that against Fran for the next 4 years, when recruiting for players in Connor's or Patrick's positions.

 

[NikeHawk21]

You can play the 5 at 6'8. You've got to be physical, able to shoot from mid range and you better be above average athletic.

I’ve watched a good amount of both Pardon and Ward and never seen either hit a mid range shot. They are both much more athletic than Cordell that’s for sure.

 

[NikeHawk21]

This is crazy talk. Taking average players who have obvious holes in their games, and using those holes to argue that they need to play a different position. One guy says Pemsl is a 5 because he can't shoot and isn't quick. Another guy says Pemsl is a 4 because he's too short to be a 5. Both are right and both are wrong. If you want to point out flaws to prove what position someone shouldn't play, you can do it all day with practically every player who isn't awesome.

I agree with what you are saying about guys have weaknesses at their position. When I chose “natural position” it is about bringing a players strengths to the forefront and minimizing their weaknesses.

Bohannon- his weakness of perimeter defense doesn’t change at the 1 or 2. His shooting is his biggest strength and you could argue he could get more shots at the 2. He is a good passer though so there is a tradeoff. There is certainly a debate here which is why I said 1/2 in my Op.

Cook- his main strength is his athleticism and his strength. Those two items are brought to the forefront the most at the 5 spot where he becomes a matchup nightmare. His weakness is defense where he struggled guarding 5s and 4s. I believe he stands a better chance guarding 5s in this league because he has the strength to do it. His other weakness is turnovers which also come when he is handling the ball and trying to dribble the ball in from the elbow. When he catches the ball on the block he is a force. That’s easier to do at the 5. He is good enough that he can play the 4 obviously and I still think he would get minutes there due to the roster we have.

Baer- it’s pretty simple. His ball handling and outside shooting are average to below average for a 3. They are average to above average for a 4. He’s a good enough rebounder and shot blocker to play the four. He is undersized slightly at the position but I think his basketball IQ makes up for it.

Pemsl- he is a 5. It’s pretty simple to me. He can’t hit a midrange shot or play the 4 spot in man or zone defense. He has the size to play center. Look at his performance freshman year vs this year. His freshman year he primarily played the 5 because we didn’t have Garza and Kriener didn’t get many minutes. He was a plus player his freshman year at the 5, he was a minus player this year at the 4.

 

[BlackAndGold3]

CMac - 1
Bohannon - 1
Cook - 4
Moss - 2
Garza - 5
Baer - 3
Pemsl - Bench
Dailey - 2 or 3
Kreiner - Bench
Nunge - 4
Wagner - Bench

 

[lightning1]

I’ve watched a good amount of both Pardon and Ward and never seen either hit a mid range shot. They are both much more athletic than Cordell that’s for sure.

You dont have to be able to hit a mid range shot but it certainly helps. Unless you are big and physical enough to move bodies in the post to score.