Not throwing in the towel just yet

[HawkGold]

Dean did the stars realign?

 

[MelroseHawkins]

You better start loosening your arm up though!

 

[deanvogs]

When people dislike a certain argument, they refuse to hear anything about it. That's what happened here. Dean hates the "iowa is better off without Cook" argument so much that he couldn't even comprehend what I said. Its beyond clear that Cook played slower than his athleticism would suggest he could. He played at full speed when he had the ball and knew where he was going with it. Other than that, he was a step slow. That's why he couldn't block shots very well. He doesn't anticipate very well.

I hear what you are saying, you are just wrong about all of it. Cook was a 6'8 dude who only had a 32" vertical. Of course a 6'8 guys with a 32" vertical isn't going to be blocking a ton of shots. Cook had an explosive first step for a guy his size. He brought much needed athleticism to the Iowa team full of players without great first steps or the ability to create their own offense. He was also the focal point of most defenses every night.

The person who that is having a hard time hearing what the other is saying is you. I'm not saying Cook was some all timer for Iowa, cause he wasn't. He took way to much shit while he was at Iowa though. Heck through 3 years he had pretty similar numbers to Aaron White, and like White probably would have had a huge Sr. year here if he would have stayed. I don't remember people bashing on White the way the did on Cook while he was here.

 

[deanvogs]

Dean did the stars realign?

I don't even know what this means.

 

[NikeHawk21]

I hear what you are saying, you are just wrong about all of it. Cook was a 6'8 dude who only had a 32" vertical. Of course a 6'8 guys with a 32" vertical isn't going to be blocking a ton of shots. Cook had an explosive first step for a guy his size. He brought much needed athleticism to the Iowa team full of players without great first steps or the ability to create their own offense. He was also the focal point of most defenses every night.

The person who that is having a hard time hearing what the other is saying is you. I'm not saying Cook was some all timer for Iowa, cause he wasn't. He took way to much shit while he was at Iowa though. Heck through 3 years he had pretty similar numbers to Aaron White, and like White probably would have had a huge Sr. year here if he would have stayed. I don't remember people bashing on White the way the did on Cook while he was here.

Any care to respond to my posts about Tyler’s strength / weight, where he is far from a dime a dozen given his explosiveness.

You keep parading around the 6’8 like that makes you a winner. Draymond Green is like 6’7 and blocks a lot of shots be because of his wingspan, which is why the scouts use that metric along with standing reach. Nic Baer blocked way more shots than TC are you telling me he was taller and had a better vertical? Jarrod Uthoff was the best shot blocker in the Fran era and I just found he had a 26 inch vertical.

You’re are kind of actual digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. The other problem with your argument is you were basically saying that TC was the only athlete Iowa has and now you’re saying he didn’t make it into the NBA because of athleticism. What gives?

 

[PCHawk]

I hear what you are saying, you are just wrong about all of it. Cook was a 6'8 dude who only had a 32" vertical. Of course a 6'8 guys with a 32" vertical isn't going to be blocking a ton of shots. Cook had an explosive first step for a guy his size. He brought much needed athleticism to the Iowa team full of players without great first steps or the ability to create their own offense. He was also the focal point of most defenses every night.

The person who that is having a hard time hearing what the other is saying is you. I'm not saying Cook was some all timer for Iowa, cause he wasn't. He took way to much shit while he was at Iowa though. Heck through 3 years he had pretty similar numbers to Aaron White, and like White probably would have had a huge Sr. year here if he would have stayed. I don't remember people bashing on White the way the did on Cook while he was here.

Cook had a lot of positives that made him a damn good player at Iowa. I pointed out a negative because it pertained to the post I originally quoted. Cook's explosive first step will be sorely missed on offense. At the same time, his lack or reaction time made him struggle with defense and secondary options on offense when his original plan didn't work.

And quit dissing his game in different ways to try to prove a point that I shouldn't diss his game.

 

[NikeHawk21]

TC was 17th in standing reach at the combine this year and 22nd in wingspan (7’0.5”). Both very respectable numbers.

 

[PCHawk]

Oh yea, Whitey got ripped on pretty good for being a poor half court offensive player. Uthoff got ripped on for being soft. Jok got ripped on for defense. Marble got ripped on for being a ball hog. There are a lot of people posting here and only so many things to talk about. The best player's weaknesses are bound to be talked about.

 

[PCHawk]

Any care to respond to my posts about Tyler’s strength / weight, where he is far from a dime a dozen given his explosiveness.

You keep parading around the 6’8 like that makes you a winner. Draymond Green is like 6’7 and blocks a lot of shots be because of his wingspan, which is why the scouts use that metric along with standing reach. Nic Baer blocked way more shots than TC are you telling me he was taller and had a better vertical? Jarrod Uthoff was the best shot blocker in the Fran era and I just found he had a 26 inch vertical.

You’re are kind of actual digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. The other problem with your argument is you were basically saying that TC was the only athlete Iowa has and now you’re saying he didn’t make it into the NBA because of athleticism. What gives?

Like I said in another post. If Cook had Baer's reactionary time he would have been a lottery pick even without being able to shoot. It would have helped our defense a ton last year and I would be agreeing about how much we miss his athleticism this year.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Cook had a lot of positives that made him a damn good player at Iowa. I pointed out a negative because it pertained to the post I originally quoted. Cook's explosive first step will be sorely missed on offense. At the same time, his lack or reaction time made him struggle with defense and secondary options on offense when his original plan didn't work.

And quit dissing his game in different ways to try to prove a point that I shouldn't diss his game.

Honestly I think Dean is just bummed out the football team took another one on the chin, as we all are, but it stings a little more maybe for Dean. So he’s over here trying to bash Fran’s basketball team to relieve some stress. I don’t blame him and it’s certainly possible this b-ball team will suck.

 

[deanvogs]

Any care to respond to my posts about Tyler’s strength / weight, where he is far from a dime a dozen given his explosiveness.

You keep parading around the 6’8 like that makes you a winner. Draymond Green is like 6’7 and blocks a lot of shots be because of his wingspan, which is why the scouts use that metric along with standing reach. Nic Baer blocked way more shots than TC are you telling me he was taller and had a better vertical? Jarrod Uthoff was the best shot blocker in the Fran era and I just found he had a 26 inch vertical.

You’re are kind of actual digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. The other problem with your argument is you were basically saying that TC was the only athlete Iowa has and now you’re saying he didn’t make it into the NBA because of athleticism. What gives?

Digging holes? I'll let you and PC continue to do that.

Ok, let me get this straight. Please clean up anything I miss here or that I am misinterpreting that you and PC are claiming

1) We are better off without Cook
2) We are just as athletic without Cook
3) Cook was only fast when he knew where he was going
4) Cook was slow if he didn't know where he was going
5) Cook was or wasn't athletic because he didn't block a lot of shot (I'm not even sure which way you guys are angling for this one).

Let me get back to my original points before all you and PC's tangents. Here is what I am saying:

1) Iowa would be much better with Cook playing his Sr. year
2) Cook is athletic and explosive
3) Cook took way too much shit from Hawk fans for the overall problems of the team.

 

[deanvogs]

Honestly I think Dean is just bummed out the football team took another one on the chin, as we all are, but it stings a little more maybe for Dean. So he’s over here trying to bash Fran’s basketball team to relieve some stress. I don’t blame him and it’s certainly possible this b-ball team will suck too.

Read my post, I'm not bashing the BB nearly as much as even a @InGoodCo is. I will let the year play out, I am hoping that was a one game dip for Iowa vs DePaul. My defense of Cook is not Iowa bashing.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Digging holes? I'll let you and PC continue to do that.

Ok, let me get this straight. Please clean up anything I miss here or that I am misinterpreting that you and PC are claiming

1) We are better off without Cook
2) We are just as athletic without Cook
3) Cook was only fast when he knew where he was going
4) Cook was slow if he didn't know where he was going
5) Cook was or wasn't athletic because he didn't block a lot of shot (I'm not even sure which way you guys are angling for this one).

Let me get back to my original points before all you and PC's tangents. Here is what I am saying:

1) Iowa would be much better with Cook playing his Sr. year
2) Cook is athletic and explosive
3) Cook took way too much shit from Hawk fans for the overall problems of the team.

Just because I disagree with some of your arguments doesn’t mean I’m in lockstep with PC. Here’s where I am.

Iowa is not better off without Cook I never said that. I think Tyler Cook is a physical freak which is what gave him a chance at the NBA. At the college level he did have shortcomings though which is why he put up some stinker performance despite all his physical gifts. I believe a lot of the heat he took was because of the fact he had all that talent and always considered himself an NBA guy.

In regards to the team this year I thought it was POSSIBLE we could overcome his loss, but it remains to be seen. I think his athleticism loss is only felt on the offensive end, because I think he was a below average defender, which the stats bear out over his career. I’m not too concerned about Iowa on offense though. In terms of our guards, which is all everyone bitches about anyway I do think it’s possible that Toussaint, Fredrick, and Evelyn are an upgrade in terms of athleticism.

I understand your side of the argument and I do understand what PC is getting at, I just think you made some dumb points along the way I don’t agree with.

 

[PCHawk]

Digging holes? I'll let you and PC continue to do that.

Ok, let me get this straight. Please clean up anything I miss here or that I am misinterpreting that you and PC are claiming

1) We are better off without Cook
2) We are just as athletic without Cook
3) Cook was only fast when he knew where he was going
4) Cook was slow if he didn't know where he was going
5) Cook was or wasn't athletic because he didn't block a lot of shot (I'm not even sure which way you guys are angling for this one).

Let me get back to my original points before all you and PC's tangents. Here is what I am saying:

1) Iowa would be much better with Cook playing his Sr. year
2) Cook is athletic and explosive
3) Cook took way too much shit from Hawk fans for the overall problems of the team.

I agree with all 3 of yours. No idea where you got my 1 from. That had nothing to do with what I said. I never said 2 either. All I said was his athleticism wasn't much of a factor on defense because he had deficiencies that helped negate his athleticism. Maybe if you quit assuming I'm arguing number 1, you can quit making weird arguments that don't really make sense in context to what I originally said.

 

[PCHawk]

Honestly I think Dean is just bummed out the football team took another one on the chin, as we all are, but it stings a little more maybe for Dean. So he’s over here trying to bash Fran’s basketball team to relieve some stress. I don’t blame him and it’s certainly possible this b-ball team will suck.

I'm bummed about the football team too, but I'm not going to sit here and say Cook isn't athletic like Dean is.

 

[deanvogs]

Just because I disagree with some of your arguments doesn’t mean I’m in lockstep with PC. Here’s where I am.

Iowa is not better off without Cook I never said that. I think Tyler Cook is a physical freak which is what gave him a chance at the NBA. At the college level he did have shortcomings though which is why he put up some stinker performance despite all his physical gifts. I believe a lot of the heat he took was because of the fact he had all that talent and always considered himself an NBA guy.

In regards to the team this year I thought it was POSSIBLE we could overcome his loss, but it remains to be seen. I think his athleticism loss is only felt on the offensive end, because I think he was a below average defender, which the stats bear out over his career. I’m not too concerned about Iowa on offense though. In terms of our guards, which is all everyone bitches about anyway I do think it’s possible that Toussaint, Fredrick, and Evelyn are an upgrade in terms of athleticism.

I understand your side of the argument and I do understand what PC is getting at, I just think you made some dumb points along the way I don’t agree with.

Why don't you just let PC speak for himself then?

 

[deanvogs]

I agree with all 3 of yours. No idea where you got my 1 from. That had nothing to do with what I said. I never said 2 either. All I said was his athleticism wasn't much of a factor on defense because he had deficiencies that helped negate his athleticism. Maybe if you quit assuming I'm arguing number 1, you can quit making weird arguments that don't really make sense in context to what I originally said.

I do apologize, it is hard to remember exactly all the things you have said. Let me just say you give me the overall impression that you think Cook is easy to replace, because he wasn't a "winning player" as you called it.

This next year has such a big difference between best case and worst case. I personally don't think most of the guys we lost are difficult to replace because they all had such huge holes in their games. But that doesn't mean the replacements won't still be a drop off. A drop off in talent with a huge drop off in experience will mean the worst case scenario probably plays out. To me that will be a season like a couple years ago. Replacements that end up being slightly all around better because of no holes in their game mean a season like last year or slightly better.

I think there is a decent chance CJF is a better all around player than Moss, a decent chance that Nunge could be an all around better player than Cook, and a decent chance our point guard position will be better than last year with 2 new options plus the possibility that we have a healthy Bohannon. Its unlikely all 3 will happen, but if it does, we could finally earn a seed that gives us a legit sweet 16 chance.

My prediction is a couple losses out of conference but with a tougher schedule, and a slightly better conference record, earning us a similar seed as last year.

A guy leaving early who is only boarderline NBA at best is a small excuse. But to me it's only an excuse for having a slightly worse season than we would have if Cook would have stayed. It's not enough of an excuse to miss the tournament altogether.

Now here is some hope for defense. Maybe Cook and Moss were the biggest culprits of the bad defensive effort the past few years. Maybe without them we will have 5 guys trying their asses off for 40 minutes per game. Maybe CJ and Nunge dont have the physical ability to play defense like Cook and Moss do, but maybe they have the mental makeup to work harder.

I get that Cook and Moss could be good at times (especially Cook) but I just don't know if they were "winning" players. Did they help the team more than the hurt them? I'm sure Cook did a little bit. But when you factor in how inefficient he was on offense and how average he was at rebounding and defense, I'm not sure he was all that much of a positive.

 

[PCHawk]

All I know for sure is Cook is a bad defender. Maybe I'm wrong and he does have quick reactions and just doesnt use them because he's lazy. Or maybe Fran sucks so bad at coaching defense that it ruined Cook on that end. It honestly doesn't matter what the reason is. When someone says we miss Cook's athleticism and I say we won't miss it much on defense, that part is true.

All that said, I believe I'm right and Cook is below average for a D1 basketball player's reaction time.

 

[PCHawk]

I do apologize, it is hard to remember exactly all the things you have said. Let me just say you give me the overall impression that you think Cook is easy to replace, because he wasn't a "winning player" as you called it.

If your goal was to find posts of me "ripping on Cook" you did a terrible job. When I saw all those quotes I thought "this might not look good". But then I read them and they were all fine. Especially the ones that I actually remember the context. Like the one guessing on if we will be better or worse and I laid out how both were possible. The one that said "winning players" even said that Cook was probably on the winning side slightly.

 

[blubberhawk]

I look at these next three games as an opportunity to get back on track and figure out our identity. They should be winnable games (knock on wood).

Then the tough stretch begins. That’s a stretch could chew us up and spit us out, and if it does our NCAA tourney chances will be done before December.

I remember last year we struggled at home against some crappy teams, before turning it around and looking very good in New York.

Got to admire your optimism, but mentioning this Iowa team and the NCAA tourney in the same sentence is lunacy. (unless that sentence says that Iowa has 0% chance to play in the NCAA tourney.)