More suspensions on the way

[okeefe4prez]

The Govt doesn't create wealth? What happened in the Great Recession? The Govt paid off the debt of many business and took over GM. The Govt monetized debt which basically made debt for investors and owners/stock holders disappear which ultimately is a tax on everyone.

The actions that you mentioned have nothing to do with the creation of wealth, they had to do with the valuation of assets. The government didn't pay off debt, they lent additional funds when credit markets froze. The government didn't create any wealth vis a vis GM, the value of GM is in its factories, workforce and intellectual property. The government didn't create that. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state is a tenet of Marxism and the federal government has all but centralized credit in the mortgage market and student loan market. What are two things that everyone complains about prices going up exponentially? Housing and higher education! Wow. The government didn't create that stuff, but has certainly skewed the value of it.

 

[Adam]

But wait...I thought it was all about diversity? What you are describing is the destruction of diversity, along with the extinction of certain genetic traits which took tens of thousands of years to develop and spread. Or, many would say that God created those rare traits and differences. So that would be the destruction of God's creation.

I'm sorry. That's just what our computer models show. Unless of course any one of a billion things happens to completely change the trend.

 

[Adam]

She's Korean, bruh. White Americans did horrible things to Koreans, like colonize their country for decades before WWII and force their women into sex slavery and then start a war to try to institute a command economy on the entire peninsula.

Ummm....so we are saying racism is ok as long as your nationality has been oppressed for at least a few years. Got it.

 

[HawkGold]

The actions that you mentioned have nothing to do with the creation of wealth, they had to do with the valuation of assets. The government didn't pay off debt, they lent additional funds when credit markets froze. The government didn't create any wealth vis a vis GM, the value of GM is in its factories, workforce and intellectual property. The government didn't create that. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state is a tenet of Marxism and the federal government has all but centralized credit in the mortgage market and student loan market. What are two things that everyone complains about prices going up exponentially? Housing and higher education! Wow. The government didn't create that stuff, but has certainly skewed the value of it.

They did pay off debt in a sense by monetizing it which they did. Also they have caused damage by artificially keeping I rates low which is for the benefit of those with much money.

I'm not defending it. I'm making the case that few country have socialism has he defined it and that the US has considerable socialism. Some of it you wouldn't want to live here w/o it. But yes we have created more asset bubbles.

 

[SteveGarvey1]

Assuming most of us are multi-generational native Iowans, odds are that our ancestors weren't even Americans when slavery was still legal. Iowa has large German, Hungarian, Dutch and Scandinavian populations that didn't start migrating to America until the late 1860's. I would wager that most 3rd+ generation Iowans have American ties that are less than 150 years old. You had to be pretty damned desperate to leave Europe to break the ground in a place like Minnesota, Iowa or Wisconsin 150 years ago.

Very true and a good point. One side of my family were English, supposedly came over on the Mayflower but who knows or cares. Did have one ancestor who served in the Union Army, was captured and spent 9-10 months at Andersonville, a precursor to the concentration camp system. Guess he said if that war had gone on a month longer he wouldn't have made it, the prisoners were treated so badly.

I don't wish bad feelings on those guys posting about how we should help minority populations and their neighborhoods. I don't totally agree with their outlook on supposed white privilege but we should all be able to get behind helping African-American and other minorities in constructive ways.

 

[Adam]

Racism is not limited to white people, nor is it original to America. It's been going on for all of human history in one form or another. The reality is, you'd be hard pressed to find a country or society in history who has assimilated so many different races of people into one culture and successfully moved away from a legacy period of slavery better than ours. (and of course there's still prejudice out there...I don't think it's ever possible to eliminate it 100%.)

But you'd never know that by watching much of the mass media. Unity doesn't sell papers, get clicks or increase viewership (or provide a political platform). So, the bad stories are disproportionately covered, magnified and even distorted. What I see in most of the media bears no resemblance to the interactions and relationships I have with non-white people, or to those of people in my circle of friends and family.

Shhhh. Those thoughts of ye be way to sensible (pirate voice)

 

[HawkGold]

Very true and a good point. One side of my family were English, supposedly came over on the Mayflower but who knows or cares. Did have one ancestor who served in the Union Army, was captured and spent 9-10 months at Andersonville, a precursor to the concentration camp system. Guess he said if that war had gone on a month longer he wouldn't have made it, the prisoners were treated so badly.

I don't wish bad feelings on those guys posting about how we should help minority populations and their neighborhoods. I don't totally agree with their outlook on supposed white privilege but we should all be able to get behind helping African-American and other minorities in constructive ways.

You are making a leap. The root of the discussion isn't about getting people to help. It was in discussion about racism basically and how things are reasonably or unreasonably skewed, which depends on one's point of view and race in conjunction. Ultimately the discussion was about intent v how it's heard. Your coining is the type of comment that led to further debate.

 

[tweeterhawk]

A whole bunch of these up in hya.

 

[Ree4]

Wow. so, do they use college grant or loan money to initially buy them?

No their parents send them wires in the multiple hundreds of thousands of $$ to get set up. China is starting to restrict money transfers to US or at least create more obstacles so it'll be interesting in the near future

 

[Ree4]

They did pay off debt in a sense by monetizing it which they did. Also they have caused damage by artificially keeping I rates low which is for the benefit of those with much money.

How does low rates help those with a lot of money, or did you mean to say without much money.

I met with a prominent Chinese business owner today and he summarized the difference between American and Chinese spending. (I'll summarize because his words didn't make sense). The US (individuals not govt) spends future income (debt) while the Chinese spend what they have (saving). The US is a debt based country. No new information here though lol but I didn't know that about China

 

[PCHawk]

You are making a leap. The root of the discussion isn't about getting people to help. It was in discussion about racism basically and how things are reasonably or unreasonably skewed, which depends on one's point of view and race in conjunction. Ultimately the discussion was about intent v how it's heard. Your coining is the type of comment that led to further debate.

It should always be about intent because "how it's heard" fluctuates from person to person. It's impossible to say anything without pissing someone off so there is no control over that. All you can control is intent. Always have good intent and nothing else matters.

 

[PCHawk]

If whites have it as good as everyone says, why did Randy Marsh go so far to prove he was .2% Neanderthal?

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Dude, most exchange students from Asia are not getting grant money. They're paying full freight. There are exceptions for the people who are insanely smart who we let in to steal our intellectual property, but your average undergrad kid is here on family money. That's why the schools want them so badly. They pay full rate out of state tuition. Illinois is so broke that 10% of their incoming freshman class each year is Chinese paying full tuition. It used to be 90%+ in state in the undergrad school there, but it is dropping like a rock and the taxpayers are PISSED.

Remember, China has a one child policy so those kids get sole and exclusive access to all family assets for their college, so their families spare no expense in providing for education. When that kid's 40, he's probably gonna have to shoulder the burden of his own parents and probably at least 2 of his grandparents. I'll take the '82 Buick I drove in college over that deal any day.[/QUOTE]


So your saying this kinds of ends up like the state of Illinois (Chicago burden) supporting all those service career (police and fire) individuals who are allowed to retire after 20 years of service.

 

[HawkGold]

How does low rates help those with a lot of money, or did you mean to say without much money.

I met with a prominent Chinese business owner today and he summarized the difference between American and Chinese spending. (I'll summarize because his words didn't make sense). The US (individuals not govt) spends future income (debt) while the Chinese spend what they have (saving). The US is a debt based country. No new information here though lol but I didn't know that about China

Alliws for business expansion and consumer debt. There will be hell to pay.

 

[HawkGold]

It should always be about intent because "how it's heard" fluctuates from person to person. It's impossible to say anything without pissing someone off so there is no control over that. All you can control is intent. Always have good intent and nothing else matters.

I dont doubt good intent. Perception is reality.

 

[PCHawk]

I dont doubt good intent. Perception is reality.

But like I said, you can say the same thing to 10 different people and it can be perceived 10 different ways.

 

[DDThompson]

Racism is not limited to white people, nor is it original to America. It's been going on for all of human history in one form or another. The reality is, you'd be hard pressed to find a country or society in history who has assimilated so many different races of people into one culture and successfully moved away from a legacy period of slavery better than ours. (and of course there's still prejudice out there...I don't think it's ever possible to eliminate it 100%.)

But you'd never know that by watching much of the mass media. Unity doesn't sell papers, get clicks or increase viewership (or provide a political platform). So, the bad stories are disproportionately covered, magnified and even distorted. What I see in most of the media bears no resemblance to the interactions and relationships I have with non-white people, or to those of people in my circle of friends and family.

Well said.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Corrected: "Listen, we, minus Steve Garvey1, disenfranchised an entire race of people in this country for over 100 years, and it's only started evolving to a more level playing field in the last 50 years...but it's not there yet."

The "we" was in reference to the "United States". I think most people would surmise that the post wasn't referring to anyone alive today implementing the policies dating back 150 years, but I'm happy to clarify it for you Steve. Facts are facts and unfortunately it sometimes takes generations to overcome this type oppression...so yes Steve, whether you like it or not, you are a part of the aftermath of this issue. I'm glad you are doing your part by helping people.

As far as "my liberal guilt" being imposed upon you...that's a bit of a leap Steve. It's possible to understand the economics of something without being a far left liberal, despite what Fox News will tell you. I'm not pushing reparations or anything...what I'm saying is that earmarking first class education funds to inner cities and poor areas is the answer...and making the financial commitment as a nation to do it is necessary.

Heres hoping the aliens capture you first.

<<...what I'm saying is earmarking first class education funds to inner cities and poor areas is the answer...and making the financial commitment to do it as a nation is necessary.>>

We have 50 to 100 years of hard evidence that this hasn't worked. Why? Numerous reasons, not the least of which is teacher unions, union leadership, local school boards and local/municipal governments "mismanaging"--I use that term generously--said funding.

We have education-centered "departments" at multiple levels of government (duplication and triplication). We have "experts" deciding what does/doesn't get put into curricula. We have "magnet" schools, which takes kids out of their local/home area all in the name of "equality". And of course, we have strong opposition to school vouchers. And don't get me started on crap like Common Core, Educate 2000 and No Child Left Behind.

Now, add refugees from Puerto Rico (post-Hurricane Maria), as well as countries outside the U.S. Thus, we must introduce, Spanish, Creole, Arabic, etc., into schools in areas that have rarely/never had that exposure before. Meanwhile, Illinois has retired professors getting pensions of over half a million dollars. On what planet does THAT compute?

But yeah, let's keep throwing the same money to the same people. They can't possibly keep "mismanaging" it, can they?

 

[hawkeyebob62]

I hope you send letters to each country in the rest of the world and chastise them for their disenfranchising people of all races, creeds and colors for hundreds of years before America even existed. In fact, the type of disenfranchisement you are speaking of stopped because Americans came to the full realization it was morally wrong. My ancestors on both sides were "disenfranchised" also.

If you want to know the truth about why inner cities exist, go read and listen to Thomas Sowell. He will turn the light on for you. You can't "manufacture" a successful society. You cannot apportion success TO a given set of people. People must earn their success and by suppressing the opportunity for some at the benefit of others, regardless or irrespective of personal merit, is simply the a watered down reverse of the disenfranchisement you speak of.

Every citizen of America has the same rights and they must be protected and fought for and preserved for all. And all means all. Success is based on each individuals ability and willingness to sacrifice and persevere and to reach for more through individual effort. Removing obstacles that choke the quantity of opportunities is what allows ALL to have the same chance. Government is not the almighty who "gives" opportunity.

The greatest chance of ALL PEOPLE being enslaved, for those who live in a socialist society. Go look it up. The facts are out there.

Excellent post. And I love Dr. Sowell. The man is brilliant!

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Better dead than red, ya we get it. The all or nothing mentality around here is terrible. The problem is that those like you can't have an intelligent conversation with anyone about this without name calling and flag waving I doubt you have a more conservative voting record that me btw, I just doubt that. See below the list of hotbed nations of socialism. I'm not going to defend China as the abuses are well known. It is a dictatorship which is what you are really trying to say. What you are really trying to define is Marxist/Leninist. The US has a number of socialist programs and frankly you wouldn't want to live here w/o some of them. You probably bitch about socialized medicine, but are you a small business owner. If you have a family you are likely to shell out 24K for a family for health insurance and deductibles. You likely have coverage through your employer which gets tax breaks that small businesses don't. You also get some of that tax break on health coverage. Under Trump tax laws, many small businesses lost their health insurance deductibles and a number of families actually have taxes go up. Have you actually traveled much outside of N America?

Ya know on

Here are the most socialist nations in the world:

MONEY SMARTS302
Top 10 Most Socialist Countries in the World
By Peerform · On December 6, 2012

The term socialist has been thrown around quite a bit in the past few years. Not since the cold war has the term garnered so much attention in the press and from politicians. But when you look at countries who actually have a socialist economic structure, you can see some similarities to the United States – but there are some really stark differences.

Below, you will see some of the most socialistic nations in the world today:

• China
• Denmark
• Finland
• Netherlands
• Canada
• Sweden
• Norway
• Ireland
• New Zealand
• Belgium

Despite popular myths, there is very little connection between economic performance and welfare expenditure. Many of the countries on this list are proof of that, such as Denmark and Finland. Even though both countries are more socialistic than America, the workforce remains stronger.


Back to HG
Here are the state rankings on federal in and out dollars. ND? Oil. Virginia? Govt. IL which you would probably bitch about due to "socialist" Chicago? Texas? Oil.

Iowa? Farmer subsidies. Want to yank the socialist subsidies out of Iowa (ethanol)? Liberal California?

If you are going to be an ass try and do it with intelligence
View attachment 3873

China is Communism.

Denmark/Finland/Netherlands/Sweden/Norway are not socialist countries. They are countries with big government, but are very business friendly. These countries have not overtaken the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods/services. Taxing the hell out of your citizens isn't socialism. True Socialism is the government owns business and and rules all parts of a society. They allow or disallow what the government deems needed/necessary to further the "state." Venezuela IS a Socialist country. How are they doing these days? Reportedly, it costs a months wages for a single chicken in Venezuela.

so·cial·ism
[ˈsōSHəˌlizəm]
NOUN

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

I don't know about Ireland. I know that they are a low corporate tax country and woo foreign corporations. That doesn't sound like Socialism to me.

Same with Canada. I know that the people in Canada who can afford to come to America for their healthcare because their single payer healthcare determines what kind of care you can get.

Better dead than red, ya we get it. The all or nothing mentality around here is terrible. The problem is that those like you can't have an intelligent conversation with anyone about this without name calling and flag waving I doubt you have a more conservative voting record that me btw, I just doubt that. See below the list of hotbed nations of socialism. I'm not going to defend China as the abuses are well known. It is a dictatorship which is what you are really trying to say. What you are really trying to define is Marxist/Leninist. The US has a number of socialist programs and frankly you wouldn't want to live here w/o some of them. You probably bitch about socialized medicine, but are you a small business owner. If you have a family you are likely to shell out 24K for a family for health insurance and deductibles. You likely have coverage through your employer which gets tax breaks that small businesses don't. You also get some of that tax break on health coverage. Under Trump tax laws, many small businesses lost their health insurance deductibles and a number of families actually have taxes go up. Have you actually traveled much outside of N America?

Ya know on

Here are the most socialist nations in the world:

MONEY SMARTS302
Top 10 Most Socialist Countries in the World
By Peerform · On December 6, 2012

The term socialist has been thrown around quite a bit in the past few years. Not since the cold war has the term garnered so much attention in the press and from politicians. But when you look at countries who actually have a socialist economic structure, you can see some similarities to the United States – but there are some really stark differences.

Below, you will see some of the most socialistic nations in the world today:

• China
• Denmark
• Finland
• Netherlands
• Canada
• Sweden
• Norway
• Ireland
• New Zealand
• Belgium

Despite popular myths, there is very little connection between economic performance and welfare expenditure. Many of the countries on this list are proof of that, such as Denmark and Finland. Even though both countries are more socialistic than America, the workforce remains stronger.


Back to HG
Here are the state rankings on federal in and out dollars. ND? Oil. Virginia? Govt. IL which you would probably bitch about due to "socialist" Chicago? Texas? Oil.

Iowa? Farmer subsidies. Want to yank the socialist subsidies out of Iowa (ethanol)? Liberal California?

If you are going to be an ass try and do it with intelligence
View attachment 3873

HG, you went through a lot for a straw man argument. I'll give you credit for that. Your reply to my post had almost zero to do with what my post stated. My post was pointing out that various forms of "disenfranchisement" is not limited to America but, in fact, preceded the existence of America. The tone of the post I was responding to was that of slavery, to which, I pointed out that the best way to get to that point is with Socialism.

Connection between economic performance and welfare expenditure is vague. Welfare expenditure certainly can stifle economic growth if welfare spending grows to large. By and large, American citizens are okay with supporting welfare that helps those who need it; those who cannot support themselves, those who need daily assistance. But taxing for welfare for those who are able bodied but are willing to accept the welfare, that is big government. Is this what you believe?

You seem to know what everyone else thinks or believes, or should, and you become belittling and resort to name calling and are argumentative to prove a point. When two people are discussing a topic from opposite ends of the point, the person who resorts to name calling and belittling their opposing debater, is the person who has lost the argument. When you can't win on facts you start the name calling.