DexterMorgan
Well-Known Member
Fixed
Lance Armstrong Dilema
- Thread starter JonDMiller
- Start date
Fixed
WinOneThisCentury
Well-Known Member
Ok, I'm a cycling guy and at one time was somewhat fanatical about it. I've done bike trips with the tour where we road the same rides as the pro riders and in many cases get on the course 3-4 hours ahead of the tour riders during the stage. These rides are set up through Trek bike tours during the tour de france. It's fantasy cycling at it's best. Trust me, going up the Col De Tourmalet with a million people on the mountain is quite a rush.
That being said, Trek also set up former pro riders to ride with us for a day or half a day depending on the ride. Two of these riders were former Armstrong teammates on US Postal. They never implicated Armstrong once mind you, but they did give us insight into what doping really means in the sport in particular the use of EPO.
Here's the quick skinny. Let's say the first 30 of the top riders in the Tour De France are absolutely clean and use no performance enhancing drugs. Then let's presume rider number 31 decides to cheat. Our question was, "where would he finish if everyone ahead of him is clean." They stated..."he wins, and it's isn't even close." So if the 31st most talented rider in the race can make that big a leap...deductive reasoning will tell you...they are all cheating. There is too much evidence to think otherwise.
Now, Jon made a similar point. If they are all cheating...Armstrong was still the best rider. I agree with this premise. You could say he had better drugs or understood doping better than others, but the point becomes...everyone's cheating...he just trained harder, is genetically a freak, and therefore is the champion we think he is.
That being said, I would never direct my son to become a cyclist and would tell him to steer clear of the sport. I love the adrenaline and the sport immensely...but if you take it seriously as a profession...you will end up doing things that still aren't clear as to the long term effects.
bighawkeyedaddy
Well-Known Member
So who gets the Tour de france wins now? All 7 runner ups have either been suspended for suspected doping or have tested positive during their careers. Everyone cheated in cycling, doesn't make it right, but they did.
GoHawks12345
Well-Known Member
I assume he was doping.
But I also think you should have evidence before convicting the guy. Otherwise, why even have the competition if the winner will be called a cheater and disgraced?
But I also think you should have evidence before convicting the guy. Otherwise, why even have the competition if the winner will be called a cheater and disgraced?
O
OatesStache
Guest
So Cycling is now pro wrestling?
Everyone's on steroids, nothing that happens is real, and good guys and bad guys switch character intermittently.
Everyone's on steroids, nothing that happens is real, and good guys and bad guys switch character intermittently.
GoHawks12345
Well-Known Member
Next question is, who has the goofier outfits?
vegashawki
Well-Known Member
Spandex is spandex, whether it is "professional wrestling" or cycling.
JonDMiller
Publisher/Founder
I don't think so. Did Madoff have a non-profit that raised nearly 500 mil to fight cancer?
FalseMirage
Well-Known Member
Most insightful, intelligent, and thoughtful post yet on the subject.
racerhawk
Well-Known Member
I raced as an amateur for 25 years. Many races were pro/am races, so I raced alongside some of these folks. I also have a personal friend who is one of the top domestic pros in the US.
Certainly, Armstrong was the best of that era, and it was an era where the top riders doped with EPO. Other winning riders of that era (Pantani, Basso, Ullrich, etc) all were caught doping. So, Armstrong was still the best rider, and was/is a genetic freak.
Lance was an excellent teenage triathlete before he started bike racing. In his first race at Nationals as a kid, he rode away from the group. A friend of mine was in that race. They just let him go, as he was, at the time, an unknown. They never saw LA again and he won the race.
I think it's pretty clear that LA doped, but most have thought this for many years. The sport still has problems, but again, this is a sport that tests people constantly. I still assert that if this were the case in the NFL, MLB, etc it would be shocking to see how many dope. My point is that PEDs are rampant when big money is involved.
At the amateur level in cycling, there is far less doping. They catch a few elite amateurs now and then (some dudes in Minneapolis had a rough go of it a few years back), but doping is much less common in these ranks.
Interestingly, Lance had recently been doing triathlons and was starting to win professional triathlons at the half-ironman distance. He was to compete in Kona and see if he would be the top pro triathlete in the world, but that has been put on hold...perhaps indefinitely. He's still a freak of nature if he can just enter a sport like triathlon as a pro and win immediately. That ain't easy. In addition to riding fast, you also have to be an incredible runner and swimmer.
I'm encouraging triathlon for my son. He loves to run and swim, and this is the type of sport you can do for a lifetime. Cycling is fantastic, but criteriums are dangerous. I've broken both collarbones and separated my shoulder. Not fun.
To the previous poster...cycling has a lot of avenues. You have to remember that the Tour de France level of cycling consists of the best 225 riders in the entire world. Cycling is a very popular sport worldwide, so only a small number in that 225 are even American. The point is that your son shouldn't have to worry about competing with the LAs of the world unless he is genetically gifted. He could still do the sport and never come near PEDs.
Certainly, Armstrong was the best of that era, and it was an era where the top riders doped with EPO. Other winning riders of that era (Pantani, Basso, Ullrich, etc) all were caught doping. So, Armstrong was still the best rider, and was/is a genetic freak.
Lance was an excellent teenage triathlete before he started bike racing. In his first race at Nationals as a kid, he rode away from the group. A friend of mine was in that race. They just let him go, as he was, at the time, an unknown. They never saw LA again and he won the race.
I think it's pretty clear that LA doped, but most have thought this for many years. The sport still has problems, but again, this is a sport that tests people constantly. I still assert that if this were the case in the NFL, MLB, etc it would be shocking to see how many dope. My point is that PEDs are rampant when big money is involved.
At the amateur level in cycling, there is far less doping. They catch a few elite amateurs now and then (some dudes in Minneapolis had a rough go of it a few years back), but doping is much less common in these ranks.
Interestingly, Lance had recently been doing triathlons and was starting to win professional triathlons at the half-ironman distance. He was to compete in Kona and see if he would be the top pro triathlete in the world, but that has been put on hold...perhaps indefinitely. He's still a freak of nature if he can just enter a sport like triathlon as a pro and win immediately. That ain't easy. In addition to riding fast, you also have to be an incredible runner and swimmer.
I'm encouraging triathlon for my son. He loves to run and swim, and this is the type of sport you can do for a lifetime. Cycling is fantastic, but criteriums are dangerous. I've broken both collarbones and separated my shoulder. Not fun.
To the previous poster...cycling has a lot of avenues. You have to remember that the Tour de France level of cycling consists of the best 225 riders in the entire world. Cycling is a very popular sport worldwide, so only a small number in that 225 are even American. The point is that your son shouldn't have to worry about competing with the LAs of the world unless he is genetically gifted. He could still do the sport and never come near PEDs.
Stiles
Well-Known Member
Seriously? Dumbest post ever? In the running?
Bernie Madoff is in prison for stealing billons, who did Lance hurt/steal from?
Oh yeah, instead of stealing billions, he helped raise half a billion for cancer.
He cheated, like EVERYONE, who was good in the TDF.
hawktransplant
Well-Known Member
“You figure they cheat at the ballpark, they'll cheat on the golf course, they'll cheat in business, and anything else in life. Players may laugh about it and say it's funny, but right down in their heart, they don't think it's funny at all, and they have no respect for a person who cheats.†Bob Feller
I don't want my kids looking up to cheaters like Armstrong.
I don't want my kids looking up to cheaters like Armstrong.
racerhawk
Well-Known Member
I don't either. It's interesting that successful cheaters who were caught sometimes come back to the sport to prove themselves again.
I wonder if they're proving themselves to us, or to...themselves? I can't imagine they're happy.
WinOneThisCentury
Well-Known Member
My point was, that I would discourage my son from wanting to be a professional. Honestly, I would encourage anyone to take up the sport...the health benefits are amazing and it's better than any other cardio driven endeavor...all without the pounding of running, etc. It's such a unique sport...as the battle is all within you mentally. You decide how much you pain you can take and how much you decide to challenge yourself each ride. It's also very, very humbling. The minute you think you are pretty good...someone dusts you at the top of a climb. I love the sport...just would never want my kid to be a pro.
imported_ankle23
Well-Known Member
vinny - i don't think i've read many of those sentiments.
here are a couple thoughts:
1. I've known guys who have gone belly-up because they had to defend themselves in a lawsuit - which they WON! But they ultimately lost due to the cost of defending themself.
2. I've had a simple foreclosure/eviction lawsuit in Texas that was a massive headache for me (i won every step of the way). But, there were a few technical errors to start out with that had to be unwound. Normally a guy wouldn't fight it because he'd have to pay an attorney and ultimately he'd lose. But in this case the guy qualified for a PUBLIC DEFENDER. Took several years, won every step of the way, but i had to shell out plenty of coin to do so because my opposition had an unlimited source of tax payer money. See: USADA. There were many times I thought along the way 'f it' because of the circumstances of having to compete v. public dender (open checkbook).
3. Lance has certainly done well for himself, but he's spent millions of dollars defending himself along the way, winning every time. His income is certainly less than it once was - every body has a limit on funding, no doubt. This is certainly a factor at this point in his life. Now it is over for him. He can move on. He certainly now has no more 'worries' about having to face this 'yet again'.
4. Why lifetime ban for first offense? Guys like Landis and Hamilton got 2 year bans (first offense) when they actually tested positive in a drug test.
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DwayneTwill
Well-Known Member
Well said.
I'm of the opinion that he wouldn't have been able to raise all that money and Livestrong wouldn't be what it is today without him winning 7 TDF's. In my book, his fundraising efforts are way more important than some grueling bicycle race. However, until there's a positive test, he's innocent. If all the others got caught around the same time with positive tests then why didn't Lance if he was in fact doping, was he the only one that was so much better at it, I doubt that. Personally, I don't care, if he did then fine, he didn't harm anyone in the process, but he sure did help a heck of a lot of people and will continue to do so.
O
OO44
Guest
Holy batcrap, are you nuts? Madoff is a proven crook, stealing billions while an incompetent SEC let him do it.
Armstrong never tested positive for PED's in a sport where everybody uses. Lance Armstrong is a good guy while Madoff is not.
racerhawk
Well-Known Member
Gotcha. Thanks. I also totally agree about cycling being humbling. It's an amazing sport.
You haven't lived until you've done a 100k Criterium and averaged over 30mph the whole way. It's just amazing, and horrible!