Cyclones17
Well-Known Member
No he is comparing the star players. Not role players. You take the star players and put them together. What separates them? Most times it is playoff performances and rings
Kobe
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No he is comparing the star players. Not role players. You take the star players and put them together. What separates them? Most times it is playoff performances and rings
whammer33024
Well-Known Member
thank you cyclone17...at least someone gets my point.
ps, i'd totally put marino in front of bradshaw on my list. but a lot of people wouldn't just because his fingers are decorated
ps, i'd totally put marino in front of bradshaw on my list. but a lot of people wouldn't just because his fingers are decorated
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
Do you remember Larry Hughes in the playoffs that season? He was terrible. He shot 37% from the floor and averaged 11 a game. Eric Snow averaged 6 a game in the playoff. These guys were not good. So how can you say that proves Kobe is the best because he made it to the playoffs but didnt win a single series yet, LeBron takes a team that wouldn't win 20 games without him, to the finals?
thejumper5
Well-Known Member
No, he's making the argument that Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett are better than Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. Its not JUST about rings, but you cannot be the best of the best unless you win titles.
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
I like to judge QB's by their performance, and things like completetion percentage and TD/Int ratio not by how good their defense was. Do you think Trent Dilfer is better than Marino too?
thejumper5
Well-Known Member
He said "most times" its about playoff performance and rings. When are approximately as good as each other, the difference in how they are perceived will be number of championships, especially at quarterback and when a player is the primary player on a basketball team. With Dilfer and Marino, they weren't approximately as good as each other, so there is no argument.
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
But that's my point, Marino and Bradshaw aren't approximately as good as each other. It's not even close. Look at Bradshaw's stats, they are extremely average even though he played with two hall of fame wide outs. Just because Bradshaw won a few titles, doesn't mean he's close to Marino.
thejumper5
Well-Known Member
Okay, I'll give you Bradshaw, but a lot of people won't. And that still leaves the issue Brady, Montana, Elway, Manning, and Favre. The point is, Marino (and any other QB/#1 guy in basketball who never won a ring) will never be widely (emphasis on widely) considered the best player at his position because he didn't win. (And by the way, I'm a huge Dolphins fan who idolized Marino as a kid. If I had to pick a QB, I would always pick him, but he isn't and will never be WIDELY considered the best, just like LeBron won't if he never wins a title).
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
I agree with that, I was just pointing out that Bradshaw shouldn't be in that group and then another poster used the rings argument as to why he should be above Marino, which is ridiculous. But I do think that to be considered the best all time you need to win a title.
Cyclones17
Well-Known Member
Do you remember what the east and west where like 4 years ago? The East was terrible. 3 teams made the playoffs with a record below .500. Beyond terrible and the West was stacked. The Cavs wouldn't have gotten out of the first round in the West and they won the East. And to even compare Kobe's supporting case to Lebron's during that time is laughable.
Your not getting it Mike. He is talking about STARS. Dilfer wasn't the star of that team.
GravyJones
Well-Known Member
Kobe's probably the 3rd best player in the league. I say probably because after LeBron and Durant, I don't know who else off the top of my head that would challenge him for the 3rd spot.
GoHawks24
Well-Known Member
HAHAHA. Is that supposed to be a joke? You can't be serious. If you are, you obviously do not know much about NBA basketball.
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
So every team in the West was better than every team in the east that year? They beat a pretty good Pistons squad that year. They both had terrible teams, The Laker's second best player that year, Odom, was better than anyone LeBron played with. That Cavs team doesn't win 20 games without LeBron, just making the playoffs isn't that impressive. Kobe won 40 some games with a bad team, how does that prove he's the best player in the league? You keep changing your argument.
And yes I know Dilfer wasn't the star, but Bradshaw was an average Qb on a stacked team, he was nowhere near Marino's level.
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
What part of what I said there is wrong? Gasol is far and away the best player besides Kobe and Lebron on either of those teams but other than that the Cavs are right there with the Lakers. They have a much better bench than LA especially with Bynum being hurt. But really let me know what part of my statement is wrong.
24KobeKinnick
Member
I'm a Kobe/Laker fan, but I don't consider myself all that bias. I think Kobe's the best all around player. People bring up the assist argument saying that is what makes teammates better and thats partially true. Kobe would average more assist if he did not play in the triangle. I've heard Phil and Fish say the same thing. What makes Kobe the best leader is the way he drives and pushes his teammates. I remember Don Nelson saying earlier this year Kobes not only the best player, but the best leader. Almost all of Kobe peers recognize him as the best playerl. Even in the last few months Dwight, Wade, Durant, etc have said he is the best. There was also a poll at the begginning of the year of current players and coaches voting on the best player and Kobe won in a landslide. Kobes not Jordan, but MJ fans should appreciate Kobe more than anyone. He's the closest thing there is, he has no weaknesses and he has dedicated himself to the game and winning like MJ did.
Also when does Lebron take SOME responsibility for losing? All year everyone was saying he finally had the teammats, then they added Jamison and everyone was saying they are a lock. In a few of their losses his teammates shot close to 50%. They were also the deepest team in the league. I think Lebron has a chance to be better than any player, but he seemed more worried about FA than winning. As a basketball fan I hope he becomes more like MJ/Kobe.
Also when does Lebron take SOME responsibility for losing? All year everyone was saying he finally had the teammats, then they added Jamison and everyone was saying they are a lock. In a few of their losses his teammates shot close to 50%. They were also the deepest team in the league. I think Lebron has a chance to be better than any player, but he seemed more worried about FA than winning. As a basketball fan I hope he becomes more like MJ/Kobe.
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All people want to talk about is how many rings does KB have. Well everyone of those teams he was on had a better team than waht LJ had this year in terms of players. LJ does not have another star on his team like KB has, and heck KB wasn't even the start of the first 3 rings he won, he rode on Shaq's back to those rings.
Biggest things to look at are the numbers...
PTS/RB/AST/ST/TO
KB - 27 / 5.4 / 5.0 / 1.55 / 3.2
LJ - 29.8 / 7.3 / 8.6 / 1.64 / 3.4
James killed him in rebounds and assists per game...
Biggest things to look at are the numbers...
PTS/RB/AST/ST/TO
KB - 27 / 5.4 / 5.0 / 1.55 / 3.2
LJ - 29.8 / 7.3 / 8.6 / 1.64 / 3.4
James killed him in rebounds and assists per game...
Cyclones17
Well-Known Member
I agree that Marino is the better QB. I am just talking about how some people view it
There were 8 teams better than the Cavs that year in the West. Yes. No question really. Spurs were a 3 seed and swept the Cavs that year. That Cav's team was no better than that Lakers team despite having better surrounding talent.
Who would you rather have Smush Parker or Larry Hughes?
Chris Mihm or Zydrunas?
Kwame Brown or Drew Gooden?
24KobeKinnick
Member
So Oscar Robertson and Wilt are the two greatest players of all time? Also Kobe didn't "ride" Shaq. Did you not see the way Kobe dominated the Spurs, Kings and Blazers in the Western Conference playoffs. He had multiple series where he averaged near 35 a game. Also did you not see Shaq foul out of the 2000 Finals and Kobe score EVERY point in overtime to lead them to a victory. People that say he rode Shaq don't know basketball or they are haters. Usually both. It was arguably the two best players in the game on the same team.
Cyclones17
Well-Known Member
Those are regular season #'s. Who cares about those? In the playoffs Kobe averages more points in the less minutes with 4 less FT's attempted per game. He averages less turnovers, is a better defender (1st all NBA defense 10 times now). He actually shows up in clutch situations of a game. Doesn't stand at half court like LBJ.