Hey look....Willies to Texas Tech

[deanvogs]

With Welsh rejoining the team, is anyone really willing to say that if Willies went into KF office and said to KF: "Listen, my dad's health is failing, and I'm really frustrated with my roll on this football team" that KF would have done anything other than help the kid in every way he could have?

I think this is what bothers me the most about many's attitudes about this whole Willies situation. Like KF or hate him, he has always been pretty fair to his player who have had some hard times either personally or with rolls on the team etc. Angerer, LTP both went into KF office to quit football, and both came out the other side and became great Hawkeyes.

 

[SpecialKHawk]

You act like Willies was a 5* kid who's athleticism was actually producing results on the field. He was splitting time with other WR, because he couldn't separate from this group. If Dereck freaking Willies was such an athlete, how come he couldn't elevate above those he was splitting time with? If he is soooo awesome, why don't we see the results on the field in game time?

7 catches 75 yds
3 catches 62 yds
4 catches 71 yds

Then you have Diamond Powell who had 6 catches for 157 yds. Seriously with all the mistakes DW was making, and considering he didn't produce anything on the field that the others were producing, a coach is just supposed to cut all playing time for Powell, Hillyer, and MV for the "supremely" talented DW???

You guys are just using Willies leaving as confirmation bias of everything wrong with the program. To me that is just lazy intellectual thinking. If you take Willies leaving as an individual event, there is nothing there. KF didn't do anything wrong here, except getting a RS FR into the WR rotations. Willies was playing as many downs as Hillyar, and MV, but less than Powell. He then was injured after 5 games, and soon after he quit. He was a big part of the WR rotations, he was playing as much as any of them.

I wouldn't want any other coach at Iowa to handle it any differently. You think Beliema would let some RS FR kid quit the team, and then he would go suck their *ick to get them back???? LOLOL if you think that huge ego maniac would chase after a 3* Willies who was making simple read and route mistakes on the field. Only an internet poster or some kid playing video games promotes Willis to get everyone else playing time while producing like he was.

You are making an argument about production when Willies got about 10-15 snaps in 3 games to produce one game winning TD catch and another big catch against UNI. How many TD catches did Vandeburg, Hillyer, McCarron and the other receivers have given the number of snaps they got?

I cannot believe you are throwing Powell in on this argument because he is also one who many of us think was WAY under utilized as well. Nice try.

The package of WR's that should have played the VAST majority of snaps should have been T Smith, Willies, Powell and KMM. KMM would have been then slot, underneath possession receiver and not the role he had as well.

The rub is about identifying talent and getting such talent on the field to make plays which we desperately need to win games. If you have not noticed we are not winning big games and struggling mightily to beat crappy teams often. That should be all the proof you need when a guy is sitting on the bench after making a bunch of plays in open scrimmages and did so in about 10 snaps only to disappear for bogus reasons. How many big plays did our receivers make in this years scrimmages? About zero.

 

[PCHawk]

You are making an argument about production when Willies got about 10-15 snaps in 3 games to produce one game winning TD catch and another big catch against UNI. How many TD catches did Vandeburg, Hillyer, McCarron and the other receivers have given the number of snaps they got?

I cannot believe you are throwing Powell in on this argument because he is also one who many of us think was WAY under utilized as well. Nice try.

The package of WR's that should have played the VAST majority of snaps should have been T Smith, Willies, Powell and KMM. KMM would have been then slot, underneath possession receiver and not the role he had as well.

The rub is about identifying talent and getting such talent on the field to make plays which we desperately need to win games. If you have not noticed we are not winning big games and struggling mightily to beat crappy teams often. That should be all the proof you need when a guy is sitting on the bench after making a bunch of plays in open scrimmages and did so in about 10 snaps only to disappear for bogus reasons. How many big plays did our receivers make in this years scrimmages? About zero.

Agreed. People aren't saying he was awesome (although I think he might have ended up awesome ). People are saying he was better than others we had. I also want to know how people know the snap count of receivers. Serious question.

 

[PCHawk]

You act like Willies was a 5* kid who's athleticism was actually producing results on the field. He was splitting time with other WR, because he couldn't separate from this group. If Dereck freaking Willies was such an athlete, how come he couldn't elevate above those he was splitting time with? If he is soooo awesome, why don't we see the results on the field in game time?

7 catches 75 yds
3 catches 62 yds
4 catches 71 yds

Then you have Diamond Powell who had 6 catches for 157 yds. Seriously with all the mistakes DW was making, and considering he didn't produce anything on the field that the others were producing, a coach is just supposed to cut all playing time for Powell, Hillyer, and MV for the "supremely" talented DW???

You guys are just using Willies leaving as confirmation bias of everything wrong with the program. To me that is just lazy intellectual thinking. If you take Willies leaving as an individual event, there is nothing there. KF didn't do anything wrong here, except getting a RS FR into the WR rotations. Willies was playing as many downs as Hillyar, and MV, but less than Powell. He then was injured after 5 games, and soon after he quit. He was a big part of the WR rotations, he was playing as much as any of them.

I wouldn't want any other coach at Iowa to handle it any differently. You think Beliema would let some RS FR kid quit the team, and then he would go suck their *ick to get them back???? LOLOL if you think that huge ego maniac would chase after a 3* Willies who was making simple read and route mistakes on the field. Only an internet poster or some kid playing video games promotes Willis to get everyone else playing time while producing like he was.

You are ssking questions like "why didn't Willies play more if he was so good" like it's going to make people see the light. But that is the same question we have all been asking. Why the hell wasn't he playing more!?

 

[PCHawk]

Also stars don't matter anymore once a player sees the field.

 

[deanvogs]

Agreed. People aren't saying he was awesome (although I think he might have ended up awesome ). People are saying he was better than others we had. I also want to know how people know the snap count of receivers. Serious question.

Ummmm, yes they are. People are saying he is soooo awesome, and soooo talented, that he should have gotten ALL THE SNAPS that Hillyer and MV were getting. Yet each players production was nearly the same. 3 or 4 catches for 60-75 yds over 5 games. If Willies was sooooo much better, why didn't his number dwarf the other two?

Plus the bigger point is why such the big deal over the 4th WR? I mean JFC people, he was playing, he was in the rotations. Dude QUIT ON HIS TEAM, he isn't worth having this love fest over, and he certainly isn't worth KF sucking his ballz to try to get him back. That goes for ANY FREAKING PLAYER.

 

[deanvogs]

Also stars don't matter anymore once a player sees the field.

Agreed, as Willies wasn't outproducing anyone on the field. MV and Hillyer both has similar stats as Willies.

The only reason I still post about this, is that this completely stuns me that some are still bent out of shape over this. Kid quit, period, just flat out quit. I wish him luck from here on out, but he made his decision to quit, that is on him.

 

[PCHawk]

Agreed, as Willies wasn't outproducing anyone on the field. MV and Hillyer both has similar stats as Willies.

The only reason I still post about this, is that this completely stuns me that some are still bent out of shape over this. Kid quit, period, just flat out quit. I wish him luck from here on out, but he made his decision to quit, that is on him.

One thing i will say is it is probably pointless to get bent out of shape over any reciever leaving because of the way we choose to utilize them.

I don't understand why people rely so much on stats though. You could tell by watching Willies that he was at least as good of a reciever as everyone but Smith, but had WAY more upside. Even KMM wasn't athletic enough to catch a ball in stride and get yards after catch. They play way too "white".

 

[RocknRollface]

You act like Willies was a 5* kid who's athleticism was actually producing results on the field. He was splitting time with other WR, because he couldn't separate from this group. If Dereck freaking Willies was such an athlete, how come he couldn't elevate above those he was splitting time with? If he is soooo awesome, why don't we see the results on the field in game time?

7 catches 75 yds
3 catches 62 yds
4 catches 71 yds

Then you have Diamond Powell who had 6 catches for 157 yds. Seriously with all the mistakes DW was making, and considering he didn't produce anything on the field that the others were producing, a coach is just supposed to cut all playing time for Powell, Hillyer, and MV for the "supremely" talented DW???

You guys are just using Willies leaving as confirmation bias of everything wrong with the program. To me that is just lazy intellectual thinking. If you take Willies leaving as an individual event, there is nothing there. KF didn't do anything wrong here, except getting a RS FR into the WR rotations. Willies was playing as many downs as Hillyar, and MV, but less than Powell. He then was injured after 5 games, and soon after he quit. He was a big part of the WR rotations, he was playing as much as any of them.

I wouldn't want any other coach at Iowa to handle it any differently. You think Beliema would let some RS FR kid quit the team, and then he would go suck their *ick to get them back???? LOLOL if you think that huge ego maniac would chase after a 3* Willies who was making simple read and route mistakes on the field. Only an internet poster or some kid playing video games promotes Willis to get everyone else playing time while producing like he was.

The silly part about this is you're denying the talent was there, and it clearly was.

Im not interested in having a debate about that. A "blind monkey" could see that just based on spring game catches alone and I think you know this you're just being argumentative.

The guy has already received scholarship offers from other power5 schools. No way that happens with guys like Vandeburg and Hillyard.

You cannot possibly be arguing lack of catches. That's a totally backwards argument.

We didn't throw the damn ball down field to the starting wide outs let alone a guy who was rarely on the field and rarely targeted when he was. T Smith would go entire games without getting a ball thrown at him too. Says nothing about his ability.

We had guys running open all day and Rudock couldn't/wouldn't get them the ball. It's why he's not the starter anymore. Do you not remember last year?

Lack of catches is an absurd argument.

If want catch numbers from check down Jake Rudock well then Damon Bullock is your man.

You know what BB would have done, win ten games against that schedule. Have CJ Beathard as the starter, not hired Greg davis, and generally not ****ed the situation up in the first place.

Id be fine with whatever BB did. I trust him because he doesn't have a track record of ******* off young talented players and getting them to leave. He has a track record of emphasizing winning as the most important thing.

DW actions were wrong, but they were not done in a vacuum, which is what you're trying to argue.

They were done in an environment created by Ferentz and it's my opinion that this environment has lead to the squandering of players far to often for the process to not be the true root of the problem.

 

[PCHawk]

The silly part about this is you're denying the talent was there, and it clearly was.

Im not interested in having a debate about that. A "blind monkey" could see that just based on spring game catches alone and I think you know this you're just being argumentative.

The guy has already received scholarship offers from other power5 schools. No way that happens with guys like Vandeburg and Hillyard.

You cannot possibly be arguing lack of catches. That's a totally backwards argument.

We didn't throw the damn ball down field to the starting wide outs let alone a guy who was rarely on the field and rarely targeted when he was. T Smith would go entire games without getting a ball thrown at him too. Says nothing about his ability.

We had guys running open all day and Rudock couldn't/wouldn't get them the ball. It's why he's not the starter anymore. Do you not remember last year?

Lack of catches is an absurd argument.

If want catch numbers from check down Jake Rudock well then Damon Bullock is your man.

You know what BB would have done, win ten games against that schedule. Have CJ Beathard as the starter, not hired Greg davis, and generally not ****ed the situation up in the first place.

Id be fine with whatever BB did. I trust him because he doesn't have a track record of ******* off young talented players and getting them to leave. He has a track record of emphasizing winning as the most important thing.

DW actions were wrong, but they were not done in a vacuum, which is what you're trying to argue.

They were done in an environment created by Ferentz and it's my opinion that this environment has lead to the squandering of players far to often for the process to not be the true root of the problem.

It's not only about good players leaving either. It's about not using good players that stay too. There was a lot going around about Smith leaving and he was a starter. The less athletic hard worker should definitely beat out the natural athlete from time to time. It should never happen at the rate it does at Iowa. It seems like Kirk always finds a reason not to play the more athletic player.

 

[deanvogs]

The silly part about this is you're denying the talent was there, and it clearly was.

Im not interested in having a debate about that. A "blind monkey" could see that just based on spring game catches alone and I think you know this you're just being argumentative.

The guy has already received scholarship offers from other power5 schools. No way that happens with guys like Vandeburg and Hillyard.

You cannot possibly be arguing lack of catches. That's a totally backwards argument.

We didn't throw the damn ball down field to the starting wide outs let alone a guy who was rarely on the field and rarely targeted when he was. T Smith would go entire games without getting a ball thrown at him too. Says nothing about his ability.

We had guys running open all day and Rudock couldn't/wouldn't get them the ball. It's why he's not the starter anymore. Do you not remember last year?

Lack of catches is an absurd argument.

If want catch numbers from check down Jake Rudock well then Damon Bullock is your man.

You know what BB would have done, win ten games against that schedule. Have CJ Beathard as the starter, not hired Greg davis, and generally not ****ed the situation up in the first place.

Id be fine with whatever BB did. I trust him because he doesn't have a track record of ******* off young talented players and getting them to leave. He has a track record of emphasizing winning as the most important thing.

DW actions were wrong, but they were not done in a vacuum, which is what you're trying to argue.

They were done in an environment created by Ferentz and it's my opinion that this environment has lead to the squandering of players far to often for the process to not be the true root of the problem.

Your only "arguement" really is that "he should have played more downs that JH or MV". JFC man, if every player freaking quit during the middle of the season who felt they should have been getting in a a few more plays during the game, then we couldn't field a team (they all think they should play more). Willies wasn't one of our top 2 WR for sure, or even #3. You basically think he should have been WR #4 and we shouldn't even have played JH or MV. To me that is silly as you need about 5 or 6 WR in your rotation....In your mind he was clearly #4, and this is your HUGE BEEF.

I'll end with this. KF is to blame for the state of this program, and the decline of it. I wish he were gone, I wish we could be starting over with a fresh offensive outlook. That does NOT mean then that KF is to blame for "driving" this kid off. The kid was playing, he was in the rotation, and he quit on his team, that is on him.

 

[PCHawk]

Your only "arguement" really is that "he should have played more downs that JH or MV". JFC man, if every player freaking quit during the middle of the season who felt they should have been getting in a a few more plays during the game, then we couldn't field a team (they all think they should play more). Willies wasn't one of our top 2 WR for sure, or even #3. You basically think he should have been WR #4 and we shouldn't even have played JH or MV. To me that is silly as you need about 5 or 6 WR in your rotation....In your mind he was clearly #4, and this is your HUGE BEEF.

I'll end with this. KF is to blame for the state of this program, and the decline of it. I wish he were gone, I wish we could be starting over with a fresh offensive outlook. That does NOT mean then that KF is to blame for "driving" this kid off. The kid was playing, he was in the rotation, and he quit on his team, that is on him.

The major beef was that Kirk's method for evaluating talent led him to the conclusion that Vandeberg and Hillyer are a little better than Willies. When it sure looked to most people like Willies was more than a little better than them. Same thing happened at the qb position. With the parody in sports, those little decisions are the differences between wins and loses. It compounds the problem when teenagers need to be coddled and leave because of it.

 

[Billso]

The major beef was that Kirk's method for evaluating talent led him to the conclusion that Vandeberg and Hillyer are a little better than Willies. When it sure looked to most people like Willies was more than a little better than them. Same thing happened at the qb position. With the parody in sports, those little decisions are the differences between wins and loses. It compounds the problem when teenagers need to be coddled and leave because of it.

Define "better"? LOL at every poster here who believes physical talent is the sole metric of a football player. The world is littered with physical specimens who didn't work hard and/or didn't figure out the details, and never saw a snap in the NFL or NBA.

Kirk's method for evaluating talent led him to recruit and sign Willies, and play him as a RS freshman.

On a separate note, there isn't a quality coach in the country who would've allowed Willies back on the team unconditionally. We don't know what those conditions were, of course, but 15 years of history tell us Kirk has not been unreasonable in these situations.

 

[atxhawk]

Remember when kids transferred to MAC or lower level FBS or FCS schools? Now kids are transferring to programs on the same level-ish, or better.

 

[PCHawk]

Define "better"? LOL at every poster here who believes physical talent is the sole metric of a football player. The world is littered with physical specimens who didn't work hard and/or didn't figure out the details, and never saw a snap in the NFL or NBA.

Kirk's method for evaluating talent led him to recruit and sign Willies, and play him as a RS freshman.

On a separate note, there isn't a quality coach in the country who would've allowed Willies back on the team unconditionally. We don't know what those conditions were, of course, but 15 years of history tell us Kirk has not been unreasonable in these situations.

At least you know that I'm not one of those posters who think physical talent is the sole metric since I just said a few posts ago that there should be times where the less athletic hard worker beats out the better athlete, just not near as often as it happens at Iowa.

Athletes always seem to be pushed to the side in favor of players who have no chance. OSU's bench should be littered with athletes who don't get it. Iowa doesn't have that luxery. If you don't believe me, re watch some games from last season.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Ummmm, yes they are. People are saying he is soooo awesome, and soooo talented, that he should have gotten ALL THE SNAPS that Hillyer and MV were getting. Yet each players production was nearly the same. 3 or 4 catches for 60-75 yds over 5 games. If Willies was sooooo much better, why didn't his number dwarf the other two?

Plus the bigger point is why such the big deal over the 4th WR? I mean JFC people, he was playing, he was in the rotations. Dude QUIT ON HIS TEAM, he isn't worth having this love fest over, and he certainly isn't worth KF sucking his ballz to try to get him back. That goes for ANY FREAKING PLAYER.

You are right, that is the bigger point. The point that he was the 4th or 5th WR instead of the 2nd. Iowa could have had a balls to the wall all out scoring offense if they used T. Smith/Willies/Powell as top 3 and then KMM and Hillyer as possession guys. Instead, Willies and Powell were practically ignored. You really did define the issue.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Your only "arguement" really is that "he should have played more downs that JH or MV". JFC man, if every player freaking quit during the middle of the season who felt they should have been getting in a a few more plays during the game, then we couldn't field a team (they all think they should play more). Willies wasn't one of our top 2 WR for sure, or even #3. You basically think he should have been WR #4 and we shouldn't even have played JH or MV. To me that is silly as you need about 5 or 6 WR in your rotation....In your mind he was clearly #4, and this is your HUGE BEEF.

I'll end with this. KF is to blame for the state of this program, and the decline of it. I wish he were gone, I wish we could be starting over with a fresh offensive outlook. That does NOT mean then that KF is to blame for "driving" this kid off. The kid was playing, he was in the rotation, and he quit on his team, that is on him.

Deano, this has never been in dispute. It is what transpired prior to Willies quitting on the team that is debating and clearly caused him to take the action he did. Willies quitting on the team is a completely separate and second issue of its own.

Do we all really believe that the kNU game really cost Rudock the starting job? There were several personnel mistakes last season, offensively. And if anyone doesn't believe kfootball has the final say on who plays, then they should be absolutely livid that kfootball didn't fire Davis.

 

[RocknRollface]

There's too much unknown in this particular situation, maybe KF handled DW perfectly, I don't know.

We do know what the results of his methods concerning offense in general have been.

He gets no benefit of the doubt from me.

 

[deanvogs]

You are right, that is the bigger point. The point that he was the 4th or 5th WR instead of the 2nd. Iowa could have had a balls to the wall all out scoring offense if they used T. Smith/Willies/Powell as top 3 and then KMM and Hillyer as possession guys. Instead, Willies and Powell were practically ignored. You really did define the issue.

Wow, Willies to 2nd WR and KMM to 4th string. I can see this is pointless, as this is Willies fan boy type stuff here you are throwing out.

 

[deanvogs]

There's too much unknown in this particular situation, maybe KF handled DW perfectly, I don't know.

We do know what the results of his methods concerning offense in general have been.

He gets no benefit of the doubt from me.

But you will give the benefit of the doubt to a kid who QUIT in the middle of the season, who didn't even sit down and talk to his head coach about his ailing father, who didn't even talk to his head coach about wanting to come back???

As Bilso said, KF has a 15 year track record of actually handling these situation pretty good. Just look at Welsh leaving the team for months, and is now back. Welsh obviously discussed things with KF and they reached a solution that he could be gone for months, and nobody knows why. We also know that both Angerer and LTP went into KF office to quit the team as well, and look how that was handled.