Hey look....Willies to Texas Tech

[PCHawk]

But you will give the benefit of the doubt to a kid who QUIT in the middle of the season, who didn't even sit down and talk to his head coach about his ailing father, who didn't even talk to his head coach about wanting to come back???

As Bilso said, KF has a 15 year track record of actually handling these situation pretty good. Just look at Welsh leaving the team for months, and is now back. Welsh obviously discussed things with KF and they reached a solution that he could be gone for months, and nobody knows why. We also know that both Angerer and LTP went into KF office to quit the team as well, and look how that was handled.

I think he meant he wa done giving Kirk the benefit of doubt in general. He wasn't so much talking about the Willies situation. How do you know all the stuff you said in your post is true?

Also we all know there are two types of football players. The "hard working high motor player" and the "athlete ". The guys you mentioned fall into the first category. Most people who doubt Kirk have no doubts that Kirk handles this type of player well. Willies falls into the other categorie. A lot of people think Kirk sucks at handling these types of players.

 

[deanvogs]

I think he meant he wa done giving Kirk the benefit of doubt in general. He wasn't so much talking about the Willies situation. How do you know all the stuff you said in your post is true?

Also we all know there are two types of football players. The "hard working high motor player" and the "athlete ". The guys you mentioned fall into the first category. Most people who doubt Kirk have no doubts that Kirk handles this type of player well. Willies falls into the other categorie. A lot of people think Kirk sucks at handling these types of players.

KF has been the same dude to a fault for 15 years. Players coming in know the culture, and what is expected of them. It is a where you do the work in the weight room, film room, and practice field and then you get your shot. Willies knew this coming here, Willies knows this while he is here, this isn't some secret.

You really think KF should change for one kid/player? You think that just because you have a talented player, you demand less from him? I don't get this attitude, and I think that kind of coaching would have led to our talented players not being all they could be. You have to continually push these elite talents, cause they can always get better. You push them, you demand better, you don't accept stupid mental mistake, you don't accept anything less than 100% effort, and you make them earn each and every minute of playing time.

I don't understand this attitude of just HANDING something to a kid, even if they are talented....and we wonder why we live in a culture where our athletes are entitled. I mean it isn't just Willies that thinks the WR spot should have been handed to him, it is all the poster on here as well. Heck, just give it to him, he got talent and all....no need to worry about anything else.

 

[PCHawk]

KF has been the same dude to a fault for 15 years. Players coming in know the culture, and what is expected of them. It is a where you do the work in the weight room, film room, and practice field and then you get your shot. Willies knew this coming here, Willies knows this while he is here, this isn't some secret.

You really think KF should change for one kid/player? You think that just because you have a talented player, you demand less from him? I don't get this attitude, and I think that kind of coaching would have led to our talented players not being all they could be. You have to continually push these elite talents, cause they can always get better. You push them, you demand better, you don't accept stupid mental mistake, you don't accept anything less than 100% effort, and you make them earn each and every minute of playing time.

I don't understand this attitude of just HANDING something to a kid, even if they are talented....and we wonder why we live in a culture where our athletes are entitled. I mean it isn't just Willies that thinks the WR spot should have been handed to him, it is all the poster on here as well. Heck, just give it to him, he got talent and all....no need to worry about anything else.

Even if Kirk has been the same for 15 years, it's not like Willies has been following him since he was 5. All he probably saw was the recievers that he would have to beat out. I said "if" he has been the same because i don't think he has. It seems like over the years he has gone more and more towards favoring low talent hard workers over high talent kids with extreme personallities (extreme isn't the best word but I'm struggling to think of a better one) even when those players work hard too. Remember there is nothing to suggest that Willies doesn't work hard. By far the best WR block i saw all year came from him.

I certainly don't want him to treat a player different just because he's talented. I think because of his warped scale of talent vs effort, that's exactly what he does. He would rather have a team full of guys who don't make many mistakes over a team with talent who does make mistakes.

How did it work out having a qb who i think led the conference in fewest picks? How did it work out having a rb who rarely fumbled? How did it work out having recievers who were better at reading a defense? I just find it too hard to believe that THAT high a percentage of our playmaking players have mental issues that keep them off the field.

 

[PCHawk]

KF has been the same dude to a fault for 15 years. Players coming in know the culture, and what is expected of them. It is a where you do the work in the weight room, film room, and practice field and then you get your shot. Willies knew this coming here, Willies knows this while he is here, this isn't some secret.

You really think KF should change for one kid/player? You think that just because you have a talented player, you demand less from him? I don't get this attitude, and I think that kind of coaching would have led to our talented players not being all they could be. You have to continually push these elite talents, cause they can always get better. You push them, you demand better, you don't accept stupid mental mistake, you don't accept anything less than 100% effort, and you make them earn each and every minute of playing time.

I don't understand this attitude of just HANDING something to a kid, even if they are talented....and we wonder why we live in a culture where our athletes are entitled. I mean it isn't just Willies that thinks the WR spot should have been handed to him, it is all the poster on here as well. Heck, just give it to him, he got talent and all....no need to worry about anything else.

Oh yea, I don't think Willies should have been handed the position. I think he earned the position.

 

[deanvogs]

Oh yea, I don't think Willies should have been handed the position. I think he earned the position.

Hahaha....so now you are in the weight room, film room, and practice field to judged who "won" the job. LOL, at least you haven't come out and said that Willies should have been staring and KMM sound have been 4th string.
I can't believe how many Willies fan boys there are.

 

[PCHawk]

Hey dean, don't think your arguements are falling on def ears. You make a lot of good points. I think this is a topic where both sides are right in their own way. I could just as easily argue on your side. I just think big picture, program wise, my side makes a little more sense. It seems like we're always going at it in both the football and basketball forums. That's because i would rather debate with someone like you who actually makes sense than someone who is overly extreme one way or the other. I do find it interesting though how you are a little more on the positive side than me when it comes to football but you're more negative than me with basketball.

 

[PCHawk]

Hahaha....so now you are in the weight room, film room, and practice field to judged who "won" the job. LOL, at least you haven't come out and said that Willies should have been staring and KMM sound have been 4th string.
I can't believe how many Willies fan boys there are.

No I'm not. I doubt he's falling asleep in the film room though. Like I said earlier, I don't believe that everyone on our team who has playmaking ability lacks effort at practice, weight room, and film room. Who knows about Willies but I've already detected a trend so I'm going off of that.

 

[AdamHawk]

No I'm not. I doubt he's falling asleep in the film room though. Like I said earlier, I don't believe that everyone on our team who has playmaking ability lacks effort at practice, weight room, and film room. Who knows about Willies but I've already detected a trend so I'm going off of that.

I'm not sure what exactly kept Willies off the field but it's not like KF keeps all the talented kids off the field as freshmen. Douglas and DJK are prime examples of kids who didn't quite have their heads screwed on straight but were still able to see plenty of PT. I simply think he didn't have what it took to unseat the other WRs ahead of him. He showed flashes but not consistently enough. No need to read any more into it than that.

 

[RocknRollface]

KF has been the same dude to a fault for 15 years. Players coming in know the culture, and what is expected of them. It is a where you do the work in the weight room, film room, and practice field and then you get your shot. Willies knew this coming here, Willies knows this while he is here, this isn't some secret.

You really think KF should change for one kid/player? You think that just because you have a talented player, you demand less from him? I don't get this attitude, and I think that kind of coaching would have led to our talented players not being all they could be. You have to continually push these elite talents, cause they can always get better. You push them, you demand better, you don't accept stupid mental mistake, you don't accept anything less than 100% effort, and you make them earn each and every minute of playing time.

I don't understand this attitude of just HANDING something to a kid, even if they are talented....and we wonder why we live in a culture where our athletes are entitled. I mean it isn't just Willies that thinks the WR spot should have been handed to him, it is all the poster on here as well. Heck, just give it to him, he got talent and all....no need to worry about anything else.

I think he should have changed because he has a 500 record in conference for half a decade.

Besides, we don't know who works hard in practice and who doesn't.

You're making assumptions about the whole situation.

I doubt he wasn't putting in the work.

And the mistakes thing doesn't hold water to me when there were plenty of mistakes coming from the other guys.

I'm guessing he knew he was better than the guys in front of him.

I see it allot like the QB situation, KF sticking with the inferior player for some reason. CJ was the better player, he knew it and was going to leave if a change wasn't made.

The QB situation probably played into DW leaving too.

 

[PCHawk]

I'm not sure what exactly kept Willies off the field but it's not like KF keeps all the talented kids off the field as freshmen. Douglas and DJK are prime examples of kids who didn't quite have their heads screwed on straight but were still able to see plenty of PT. I simply think he didn't have what it took to unseat the other WRs ahead of him. He showed flashes but not consistently enough. No need to read any more into it than that.

I don't think Kirk purposely keeps talented kids of the field. I think he has an unintentional bias against them because of guys like Douglas and DJK. In his eyes the bad traits those players have are exaggerated and the good traits in the less gifted players are exaggerated. That's the best guess I can come up with to explain some of the terrible personell decisions he's made.

 

[deanvogs]

Hey dean, don't think your arguements are falling on def ears. You make a lot of good points. I think this is a topic where both sides are right in their own way. I could just as easily argue on your side. I just think big picture, program wise, my side makes a little more sense. It seems like we're always going at it in both the football and basketball forums. That's because i would rather debate with someone like you who actually makes sense than someone who is overly extreme one way or the other. I do find it interesting though how you are a little more on the positive side than me when it comes to football but you're more negative than me with basketball.

Totally agree with you PC. I don't mind having these discussions/debates with the likes of you, Arvada, RockNRoll, etc. as I don't think you guy generally hate just to hate.

In my defense on the BB thing, my whole argument was built around IF fran didn't make the NCAA tournament, since he did, we got no worries....

 

[deanvogs]

I don't think Kirk purposely keeps talented kids of the field. I think he has an unintentional bias against them because of guys like Douglas and DJK. In his eyes the bad traits those players have are exaggerated and the good traits in the less gifted players are exaggerated. That's the best guess I can come up with to explain some of the terrible personell decisions he's made.

I think you are close on this. I don't think he has a bias against talented kids at all. I think KF is old school in that he uses effort in the weight room, the film room, and the practice field to build his players. Look at a Scherff for example. Dude made himself in the weight room with his effort and determination. He had talent to begin with, and when you combine that talent with that work ethic and effort, Scherff is what you get. Same with a Gallery, Clark, Sanders, Greenway, Roth, Angerer, Bulaga, Clayborn and on and on. If busting a guys hump to get that effort in his RS FR year is what you have to do, if you have to dangle playing time over him to get that effort, the kind of effort they don't even know they are capable of, I'm perfectly fine with that. If a kid quits because he can't/doesn't want that, then oh well. KF can't change who he is, or how he coaches like that. I personally don't find that to be a coaching flaw, but I see I'm in the minority on that.

It isn't like KF is seeing all his good WR leaving, or that we haven't had good WR come through here (just not NFL level). Solomon, Hinkel, Douglas (before he became an idiot), Brodell, DJK, McNutt, Stross, KMM, Smith. I think the only other WR of note to leave that has actually gone on to do anything is Cleveland. So it isn't like we have mass exodus of WR or something like that.

 

[PCHawk]

I think you are close on this. I don't think he has a bias against talented kids at all. I think KF is old school in that he uses effort in the weight room, the film room, and the practice field to build his players. Look at a Scherff for example. Dude made himself in the weight room with his effort and determination. He had talent to begin with, and when you combine that talent with that work ethic and effort, Scherff is what you get. Same with a Gallery, Clark, Sanders, Greenway, Roth, Angerer, Bulaga, Clayborn and on and on. If busting a guys hump to get that effort in his RS FR year is what you have to do, if you have to dangle playing time over him to get that effort, the kind of effort they don't even know they are capable of, I'm perfectly fine with that. If a kid quits because he can't/doesn't want that, then oh well. KF can't change who he is, or how he coaches like that. I personally don't find that to be a coaching flaw, but I see I'm in the minority on that.

It isn't like KF is seeing all his good WR leaving, or that we haven't had good WR come through here (just not NFL level). Solomon, Hinkel, Douglas (before he became an idiot), Brodell, DJK, McNutt, Stross, KMM, Smith. I think the only other WR of note to leave that has actually gone on to do anything is Cleveland. So it isn't like we have mass exodus of WR or something like that.

I would 100% agree that a coach should do that if we are talking about high school and I'd 100% disagree if we were talking about NFL. Since it's college i can see both sides. I lean towards playing the best players (i get that it doesn't always mean most talented) because I watch the game for enjoyment, and I find it a lot more enjoyingg watching players do things that wow me instead of watching players turn, catch the ball, and fall down.

 

[RocknRollface]

I'm not sure why we're talking about DW having poor practice habits. Just because he didn't see those hot reads?

I've heard about fights in practice but that's not necessarily even a bad thing. Everybody glorifies Pat Angerer for knocking out a teammate.

I think it's as much an intellect thing as anything. Ferentz loves guys who understand the ins an outs of the schemes even if they have trouble executing them physically.

Adam Shada vs Fletcher was the ultimate example of this.

My point is that if you're schemes are to complicated for your more talented players to understand, and you cant consistently win games, well then it's time to change your schemes.

 

[deanvogs]

I'm not sure why we're talking about DW having poor practice habits. Just because he didn't see those hot reads?

I've heard about fights in practice but that's not necessarily even a bad thing. Everybody glorifies Pat Angerer for knocking out a teammate.

I think it's as much an intellect thing as anything. Ferentz loves guys who understand the ins an outs of the schemes even if they have trouble executing them physically.

Adam Shada vs Fletcher was the ultimate example of this.

My point is that if you're schemes are to complicated for your more talented players to understand, and you cant consistently win games, well then it's time to change your schemes.

By all accounts DW was a smart kid, has a good GPA. I don't think this is about smarts at all. I know you knocked me for assumptions, but that is all you have here as well, is assumptions. You assume he didn't have poor practice habits, or that he wasn't smart.

He was competing with MV and JH for reps, and his production on the field wasn't anything above those guys at all, in other words he wasn't separating from them. The only thing you point to or PC points to is his "potential", but he really had 1 good catch in 5 games, but had several mental mistakes.

Something was off, maybe he didn't want to have to compete cause he thought he was on a different level from those guys. Maybe he was distracted by his father situation, who knows. Either way he really wasn't doing much out there. What we do know is that he flat out QUIT eventually. I don't think a kid goes from being an all out effort guy, team guy, to a guy who quits overnight. It had to show in his effort, his attitude, etc., he is human, it had to spill over, and my guess is that is why he wasn't separating from the others.

Sure this is all a theory, that is all we are all talking about, we don't know for a fact. I do know that this isn't the QB position where one guy plays. These are WR and we rotate 5-6 of them, and he was part of those rotations, and he wasn't doing anything more ON THE FIELD than MV or JH.

 

[PCHawk]

I'm not sure why we're talking about DW having poor practice habits. Just because he didn't see those hot reads?

I've heard about fights in practice but that's not necessarily even a bad thing. Everybody glorifies Pat Angerer for knocking out a teammate.

I think it's as much an intellect thing as anything. Ferentz loves guys who understand the ins an outs of the schemes even if they have trouble executing them physically.

Adam Shada vs Fletcher was the ultimate example of this.

My point is that if you're schemes are to complicated for your more talented players to understand, and you cant consistently win games, well then it's time to change your schemes.

Yep. Some players are smarter than others. Sometimes it has nothing to do with effort. Kirk would probably chose a smart player with poor athletics over an extremely athletic player with average smarts.

 

[RocknRollface]

Yep. Some players are smarter than others. Sometimes it has nothing to do with effort. Kirk would probably chose a smart player with poor athletics over an extremely athletic player with average smarts.

He did it all last year with Rudock.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Wow, Willies to 2nd WR and KMM to 4th string. I can see this is pointless, as this is Willies fan boy type stuff here you are throwing out.

And you didn't mention Powell, so maybe you agree he should have played in front of KMM?

I damn sure would have played both Willies AND Powell in front of KMM, last season. KMM is/was nothing more than a possession receiver. We needed to throw deep and execute deep in order to get the 8th and 9th men out of the box to free up the LOS to help our running. Even MW could have been exponentially better against 7 in the box. For that we needed T. Smith, DW and Powell, along with CJ. Throw in deep seam passes to Hamilton and Duzey and we could have had an exciting offense, if not one that was trying to address our shortcomings in the running game.

This isn't just complaining for complaining's sake, I was saying this all last season, up until Willies quit. Strategically, this is what I believe we needed to win more games last season.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

By all accounts DW was a smart kid, has a good GPA. I don't think this is about smarts at all. I know you knocked me for assumptions, but that is all you have here as well, is assumptions. You assume he didn't have poor practice habits, or that he wasn't smart.

He was competing with MV and JH for reps, and his production on the field wasn't anything above those guys at all, in other words he wasn't separating from them. The only thing you point to or PC points to is his "potential", but he really had 1 good catch in 5 games, but had several mental mistakes.

Something was off, maybe he didn't want to have to compete cause he thought he was on a different level from those guys. Maybe he was distracted by his father situation, who knows. Either way he really wasn't doing much out there. What we do know is that he flat out QUIT eventually. I don't think a kid goes from being an all out effort guy, team guy, to a guy who quits overnight. It had to show in his effort, his attitude, etc., he is human, it had to spill over, and my guess is that is why he wasn't separating from the others.

Sure this is all a theory, that is all we are all talking about, we don't know for a fact. I do know that this isn't the QB position where one guy plays. These are WR and we rotate 5-6 of them, and he was part of those rotations, and he wasn't doing anything more ON THE FIELD than MV or JH.

I think part of the problem is that DW and T. Smith were playing the same position and there is no way he beats out TS. But why not change your offense to match the talent you have? TS, DW and DP could get open deep and CJ could throw it deep. Three of those 4 were vastly under used. So, even if a person doesn't think kfootball keeps more talented players on the bench in favor of less talented players, he certainly is guilty of not changing his offense, to match available talent, when he has an abundance of talent at the same position...because you can only have 1 receiver on the field at a time that has speed and should go deep. Honestly, Powell should have gone deep twice a game for 2 seasons. That didn't even come close to happening.

 

[HawkeyeWalker]

And you didn't mention Powell, so maybe you agree he should have played in front of KMM?

I damn sure would have played both Willies AND Powell in front of KMM, last season. KMM is/was nothing more than a possession receiver. We needed to throw deep and execute deep in order to get the 8th and 9th men out of the box to free up the LOS to help our running. Even MW could have been exponentially better against 7 in the box. For that we needed T. Smith, DW and Powell, along with CJ. Throw in deep seam passes to Hamilton and Duzey and we could have had an exciting offense, if not one that was trying to address our shortcomings in the running game.

This isn't just complaining for complaining's sake, I was saying this all last season, up until Willies quit. Strategically, this is what I believe we needed to win more games last season.

Maybe Powell and Willies should have seen a few more snaps. But neither was ready to play in front of KMM on a regular basis.

I won't disagree it Seems Powell was underused. But Willies was a RS frosh who would have most likely been the #2 or #3 this year and getting most snaps, if he stayed.

Also, we didn't really play the QB to throw the deep routes, so a "posession" receivery seems logical. We will this year, I think...and Willies could have been the target, had he stayed.

He didn't stay, he quit. Don't know why he quit, but if it was due to lack of playing time, that seems pretty short sighted on the young man's part. We'll really never know what could have been, because he quit, midseason.