Hey look....Willies to Texas Tech

[hawkdrummer1]

Thought I'd expand on that a bit. The answer, I'm guessing, has to be "not many", though I can think of one.

Iowa State has winning records (5+ games played) against:
Denver
Drake
Grinnell
Kansas State
Kent St
UNLV
Ohio
Utah
Washington (of Missouri)

I have a hard time believing there are many coaches in that list (or among teams with a winning record against ISU) that played them more than 5 times with a losing record. Maybe a pre-Snyder K-State coach or early Drake or Grinnell perhaps) I'd guess Ferentz is the only one that plays them regularly...and has found a way to lose more than win.

 

[Eda]

Wasnt ripping on your post , just pointing out one of them many absurdities of Ferentz.

The guy was probably the most physically talented receiver he's ever had on the team and he wanted to come back but KF wouldn't let him, because he's too proud.

all while not being able to even beat ISU and not having enough talent to stay on the field against a middle of the pack sec team.

Is this all your opinion, or do you have proof of all this?

 

[imported_ankle23]

Is this all your opinion, or do you have proof of all this?

his anti-ferentz opinion.

let's see.....willies has been finding a new home for how many years? the latest texas tech, prior missouri......iowa......arizona........iowa, california, iowa, california.........i'm sure i missed a few in there. too bad for the kid, he's fighting an uphill battle, imo.

 

[SpecialKHawk]

his anti-ferentz opinion.

let's see.....willies has been finding a new home for how many years? the latest texas tech, prior missouri......iowa......arizona........iowa, california, iowa, california.........i'm sure i missed a few in there. too bad for the kid, he's fighting an uphill battle, imo.

Your argument is that Willies is an unreliable head case. That could be true but you have to consider that he was recruited by this staff with some of this already in his past. He had changed high schools, etc. Knowing this we redshirted him and then blew another year on him. That's 2 years of lost investment. Since the red flag was there why did the staff choose not to skip over him in the recruiting process?

He had measurables in terms of the combination of size, speed and hands we do not see very often and need desperately at Iowa. In limited open practices and games he produced as many big plays as anyone on the roster. The sense is that there was an internal debate on if with success would he become the next DJK in terms of attitude and flamboyance. KF might have sensed this and put the brakes on him.

As fans we do not care about attitude and practice habits. We care about results. KF is paid top dollar to get results on the field. He can get those results anyway he wants... we do not care. The issue is when you recruit and then run off a player like this and the results are very marginal at best then you are going to take heat.

 

[docholihawk]

I think it's fair to say the whole Willies situation has been a cluster since Willies quit and quite possibly from the start. I can understand a kid making mistakes because he's new in this situation but for KF, he should have know he could have saved this without having to swallow his pride. Maybe KF has to much pride. When there's to much pride destruction is inevitable.

 

[Eda]

I think it's fair to say the whole Willies situation has been a cluster since Willies quit and quite possibly from the start. I can understand a kid making mistakes because he's new in this situation but for KF, he should have know he could have saved this without having to swallow his pride. Maybe KF has to much pride. When there's to much pride destruction is inevitable.

Of course it IS possible that maybe Willies had trouble swallowing his pride.

 

[deanvogs]

Your argument is that Willies is an unreliable head case. That could be true but you have to consider that he was recruited by this staff with some of this already in his past. He had changed high schools, etc. Knowing this we redshirted him and then blew another year on him. That's 2 years of lost investment. Since the red flag was there why did the staff choose not to skip over him in the recruiting process?

He had measurables in terms of the combination of size, speed and hands we do not see very often and need desperately at Iowa. In limited open practices and games he produced as many big plays as anyone on the roster. The sense is that there was an internal debate on if with success would he become the next DJK in terms of attitude and flamboyance. KF might have sensed this and put the brakes on him.

As fans we do not care about attitude and practice habits. We care about results. KF is paid top dollar to get results on the field. He can get those results anyway he wants... we do not care. The issue is when you recruit and then run off a player like this and the results are very marginal at best then you are going to take heat.

I don't get the excuse making for Willies. KF was playing the RS FR Willies for God's sake. It wasn't like he was buried on the 4th team. Willies was making simple, stupid mistakes on reads and route running, what is KF supposed to do? Reward him by playing him more, or cracking down, and trying to show the kid how important those things are? Plus on top of that he was hurt, and wasn't going to play at that point anyway when he freaking quit in the middle of the season.

KF didn't ask Willies to leave during the season, and as a matter of fact KF gave the kid an out AFTER he left. Then Willies slammed the freaking door shut on that. Then a month later he wants to come back, and KF is supposed to just say, yeah, welcome back we love ya?? I'm not convinced Willies even wanted back....heck he wouldn't even take his medicine for being a huge d0ucher to his teammates by quitting on them.

I wish it never happened, I wish the kid never quit, and could realize his potential in the black and gold. Yet to hang THIS ONE on KF is just beyond stupid, the kid made his choice and quit, then wanted back, and then he moved on, that AIN'T KF fault.

 

[RocknRollface]

I don't get the excuse making for Willies. KF was playing the RS FR Willies for God's sake. It wasn't like he was buried on the 4th team. Willies was making simple, stupid mistakes on reads and route running, what is KF supposed to do? Reward him by playing him more, or cracking down, and trying to show the kid how important those things are? Plus on top of that he was hurt, and wasn't going to play at that point anyway when he freaking quit in the middle of the season.

KF didn't ask Willies to leave during the season, and as a matter of fact KF gave the kid an out AFTER he left. Then Willies slammed the freaking door shut on that. Then a month later he wants to come back, and KF is supposed to just say, yeah, welcome back we love ya?? I'm not convinced Willies even wanted back....heck he wouldn't even take his medicine for being a huge d0ucher to his teammates by quitting on them.

I wish it never happened, I wish the kid never quit, and could realize his potential in the black and gold. Yet to hang THIS ONE on KF is just beyond stupid, the kid made his choice and quit, then wanted back, and then he moved on, that AIN'T KF fault.

Those are some points that make sense but on the other hand I don't think he was making any more mistakes than the rest of the receivers besides Smith. I remember KMM essentially making the same mistake twice with that short hot read throw. Vandeburg dropped passed Hillyer dropped TDs in the end zone.

I just think if you're Iowa you have to find a way to utilize a guy who showed he had good hands, is 6'3 and can out run and out jump most defensive backs.

Id be much more willing to accept that it was DW fault for not seeing the field if KF hadn't decided stick with the clearly inferior QB all year long, all while consistently losing to bad teams.

 

[deanvogs]

Those are some points that make sense but on the other hand I don't think he was making any more mistakes than the rest of the receivers besides Smith. I remember KMM essentially making the same mistake twice with that short hot read throw. Vandeburg dropped passed Hillyer dropped TDs in the end zone.

I just think if you're Iowa you have to find a way to utilize a guy who showed he had good hands, is 6'3 and can out run and out jump most defensive backs.

Id be much more willing to accept that it was DW fault for not seeing the field if KF hadn't decided stick with the clearly inferior QB all year long, all while consistently losing to bad teams.

Iowa was utilizing Willies. Could he have been on the field more? Sure, but he wasn't going to take KMM or Smith's spot, so that left a rotation of Hillyer (who blocks much better), Vandenberg (who runs better routes and makes the correct reads) and Willies (who was mentally just not there with the team, wasn't running good routes or making correct reads).

Seriously people, have you ever tried to teach any employees or kids anything? You don't do that by rewarding bad or incorrect behavior. Willies was a RS FR, and if you want to make him a STAR when he is a JR. and SR, you hammer, and hammer, and hammer home the fundamentals and attention to details his first 3 years on campus.

 

[RocknRollface]

Iowa was utilizing Willies. Could he have been on the field more? Sure, but he wasn't going to take KMM or Smith's spot, so that left a rotation of Hillyer (who blocks much better), Vandenberg (who runs better routes and makes the correct reads) and Willies (who was mentally just not there with the team, wasn't running good routes or making correct reads).

Seriously people, have you ever tried to teach any employees or kids anything? You don't do that by rewarding bad or incorrect behavior. Willies was a RS FR, and if you want to make him a STAR when he is a JR. and SR, you hammer, and hammer, and hammer home the fundamentals and attention to details his first 3 years on campus.

I disagree with your assessments of Hillyer, Vandeburg and DW. Willies was an excellent blocker and much better at getting open and catching balls than The other two.

In the end a wide receivers job is to catch balls and he sure looked better at that to me, and clearly had a level of physical talent they didn't posses.

This is is not like parenting it's about bottom lines and W and Ls.

Unless of course you're Kirk Ferentz and have a contract that allows you to make it about whatever you want.

In the real world a business job is to make money. If an employee is uniquely talented and capable of significantly out producing others than they are not on equal playing fields. The real world is not fair, talented people get away with more. Look no further than pro sports.

You don't find reasons to keep talent unengaged you find ways to utilize it.

and you certainly don't have a double standard that makes it harder on your more talented guys while your average ones are making mistakes and losing games.

 

[PCHawk]

Those are some points that make sense but on the other hand I don't think he was making any more mistakes than the rest of the receivers besides Smith. I remember KMM essentially making the same mistake twice with that short hot read throw. Vandeburg dropped passed Hillyer dropped TDs in the end zone.

I just think if you're Iowa you have to find a way to utilize a guy who showed he had good hands, is 6'3 and can out run and out jump most defensive backs.

Id be much more willing to accept that it was DW fault for not seeing the field if KF hadn't decided stick with the clearly inferior QB all year long, all while consistently losing to bad teams.

I agree with this. Dean's arguements would normally make sense but I have lost all ability to give Kirk the benefit of doubt when making personnel decisions. It has become blatantly obvious that Kirk will play way less talented players over guys that might make a mental mistakes. The crazy thing is he has gotten to the point where he plays less talented players who make mental mistakes over the talented players who make mental mistakes.

I think someone was on to something when they said the best thing to do it ride players hard and hope to get 2 good years out of them. I have a feeling that is Kirk's plan. The problem with that is you waste a few years of a good player's career in favor of a player who can't get it done. Also there is a really high risk of running the player off before all your hard work pays off. Even when it does work out and the player gives you a really good year or 2, who's to say he wouldn't have given you that good year anyway. There is more than 1 way to mold a player. You can beat him down until he moves on or finally gets it, or you can instill confidence in him.

 

[PCHawk]

I disagree with your assessments of Hillyer, Vandeburg and DW. Willies was an excellent blocker and much better at getting open and catching balls than The other two.

In the end a wide receivers job is to catch balls and he sure looked better at that to me, and clearly had a level of physical talent they didn't posses.

This is is not like parenting it's about bottom lines and W and Ls.

Unless of course you're Kirk Ferentz and have a contract that allows you to make it about whatever you want.

In the real world a business job is to make money. If an employee is uniquely talented and capable of significantly out producing others than they are not on equal playing fields. The real world is not fair, talented people get away with more. Look no further than pro sports.

You don't find reasons to keep talent unengaged you find ways to utilize it.

and you certainly don't have a double standard that makes it harder on your more talented guys while your average ones are making mistakes and losing games.

Fedoriwitz is a good example of what you're talking about. Everyone likes to talk about how he admits himself he didn't have the right attitude. But the truth is, lots of guys can't block very well when they're young but still see the field. But somehow it kept CJ off the field because he was extremely talented but didn't block very well.

He became a pretty good player his senior year but i would wager he would have been a lot more productive and probably be playing in the NFL if Kirk would have treated him like he treats less talented players and played him early to let him learn on the field.

 

[trj]

I agree with this. Dean's arguements would normally make sense but I have lost all ability to give Kirk the benefit of doubt when making personnel decisions. It has become blatantly obvious that Kirk will play way less talented players over guys that might make a mental mistakes. The crazy thing is he has gotten to the point where he plays less talented players who make mental mistakes over the talented players who make mental mistakes.

I think someone was on to something when they said the best thing to do it ride players hard and hope to get 2 good years out of them. I have a feeling that is Kirk's plan. The problem with that is you waste a few years of a good player's career in favor of a player who can't get it done. Also there is a really high risk of running the player off before all your hard work pays off. Even when it does work out and the player gives you a really good year or 2, who's to say he wouldn't have given you that good year anyway. There is more than 1 way to mold a player. You can beat him down until he moves on or finally gets it, or you can instill confidence in him.

As others have pointed out I think the DJK experience and to a lesser extent the 06 and 07 season(s) may have left KF a little jaded.

 

[deanvogs]

I disagree with your assessments of Hillyer, Vandeburg and DW. Willies was an excellent blocker and much better at getting open and catching balls than The other two.

In the end a wide receivers job is to catch balls and he sure looked better at that to me, and clearly had a level of physical talent they didn't posses.

This is is not like parenting it's about bottom lines and W and Ls.

Unless of course you're Kirk Ferentz and have a contract that allows you to make it about whatever you want.

In the real world a business job is to make money. If an employee is uniquely talented and capable of significantly out producing others than they are not on equal playing fields. The real world is not fair, talented people get away with more. Look no further than pro sports.

You don't find reasons to keep talent unengaged you find ways to utilize it.

and you certainly don't have a double standard that makes it harder on your more talented guys while your average ones are making mistakes and losing games.

You are right, this isn't about parenting, this is about being in charge of young men. Having talent is one thing, realizing that talent is another thing entirely. Talented people in all walks of life pizz their talents down their legs all the time, Willies isn't unique in that sense.

This is strictly a case of KF results right now. If this happened in '10, nobody cares, and you are on here telling everyone we don't need quitters.....much like KF wasn't blamed for Wegher quitting on the team. Since Willies leaves in '14 because and the program is down, the masses like you now say oh yeah, of course this kid should quit right in the middle of the season, cause KF wasn't playing him enough.

 

[RocknRollface]

Well that's not what I said. And if it happened in 2010 he would have been behind legitimate receivers not Vandeburg and Hillyer who also drop balls and screw up.

im not saying he should have quit but to deny Ferentz had any culpability in the matter is beyond what I could believe to be realistic.

 

[deanvogs]

Well that's not what I said. And if it happened in 2010 he would have been behind legitimate receivers not Vandeburg and Hillyer who also drop balls and screw up.

im not saying he should have quit but to deny Ferentz had any culpability in the matter is beyond what I could believe to be realistic.

Come on. That isn't what people are saying, that Ferentz has "some culpability", as I could get on board with that. What I can't agree to is this is somehow MORE KF fault than Willies, which is really what many are saying around here. Why complain for months and months, and rehash the same things for months and months if people are just saying that yeah KF has a small part to play in this?

 

[PCHawk]

Come on. That isn't what people are saying, that Ferentz has "some culpability", as I could get on board with that. What I can't agree to is this is somehow MORE KF fault than Willies, which is really what many are saying around here. Why complain for months and months, and rehash the same things for months and months if people are just saying that yeah KF has a small part to play in this?

I can't speak for everyone, but in my case it might come off as i think it's all Kirk's fault, but that's just because his side is the only side i care about. What's the point of caring about all the random individual players who leave because they aren't tough enough to handle the way Kirk treats talented players? I only care about the common denominator that's still here.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

Ferentz was/is only half a head coach...a practice (assistant) guy. And it's never been more apparent. Norm Parker was the glue that held this team together and the guy the players loved to play for. And as much as O'Keefe was criticized, time has shown us that it was the Ferentz filter that stifled the offense. Not KOK.

Since Norm retired (may he rest in peace) the program has gone nowhere but down. Ferentz looked good, in large part, thanks to Parker and O'Keefe.

 

[PCHawk]

Ferentz was/is only half a head coach...a practice (assistant) guy. And it's never been more apparent. Norm Parker was the glue that held this team together and the guy the players loved to play for. And as much as O'Keefe was criticized, time has shown us that it was the Ferentz filter that stifled the offense. Not KOK.

Since Norm retired (may he rest in peace) the program has gone nowhere but down. Ferentz looked good, in large part, thanks to Parker and O'Keefe.

O'Keefe might not have deserved blame, but he sure doesn't deserve credit either.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

O'Keefe might not have deserved blame, but he sure doesn't deserve credit either.

Perhaps not. But compared to Davis he looks like a genius.