RobHowe
Administrator
I didn't say ignore. I said focusing. And your posts are focusing on the riots and looting. If that's bothering you more than the killing of innocent black people, well...
Property can be repaired. Lives can not be restored.
Hawkeyes Past, Present, Future Share Feelings on Racial Injustice
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I didn't say ignore. I said focusing. And your posts are focusing on the riots and looting. If that's bothering you more than the killing of innocent black people, well...
Property can be repaired. Lives can not be restored.
Ree4
Well-Known Member
Everybody knows that looting is selfish, and the destruction of the property of innocents is not what most of us want to happen. These are not earth - shattering revelations you're posting.
I'd post am article but I fear it's too political. I'll post a few excerpts:
“Riot vs. rebellion/uprising is all in the eye of the beholder. This country was founded on acts of vandalism and property destruction,” Genetta Adams, The Root’s managing editor, tells me. “See the Boston Tea Party. This was a fight for ‘liberty’ and ‘freedom.’ Who decides what these acts are called? Unfortunately, today, all too often it’s all-white or majority-white newsrooms.”
“Riot” is a violent disturbance of the peace by a crowd, and “rebellion” [is] resistance to authority or control, with some conditions: If no peace was in place to begin with, the disturbance-of-peace requirement for riot isn’t met and the action may be a rebellion instead—if it’s aimed at demanding rights. “Riot” tells you next to nothing about cause, context, or goals. “Rebellion” hints at each: A rebellion is against something, for something, with emphasis on both subject and object.
“Riot” implies meaningless eruption, an isolated flare-up that ends when the violence stops, or a gust of empty destruction by “punks” or “thugs”—name your villain.
Yep, a large segment of these fires and looting is at the hands of ANTIFA. They are opportunist and will look for any opening to hijack a peaceful demonstration to highlight their anarchist approach.
Yeah, but two wrongs don't make it right either Rob. Some of these business being burnt down are black owned businesses so where does that get us?
RobHowe
Administrator
Again, I'm not saying it's right. I haven't said that at all. I'm saying if that's your focus, if that's bothering you more than George Floyd and other blacks dying because of the color of their skin, that's a problem.
And the assumption is that it's all black people looting and rioting, which also speaks to the base problem.
SteveGarvey1
Well-Known Member
Report just out that, in last five years in Minneapolis, there were 44 cases of suspects where the police had them in holds on or around their necks that caused them to lose consciousness. I think the chief of police there is in trouble too. Or should be. Doesn't excuse what Chauvin did so don't misunderstand me but, if true, there was just a culture of police brutality there.
RobHowe
Administrator
Within the story linked in the OP, Dace Richardson, former Iowa OL who is now a Waukee police officer, talks about the tactic used by Chauvin.
Again walk and chew gum.. One can't mention one without the other and still think racism and the killing of blacks by cops is terrible? Did I say that I'm focusing MORE on the rioting? I musta missed that if I did cause I sure wouldn't have meant to. So people that bring up anything at all about how bad the rioting is have to preface it with that racism is worse or they are deflecting? This isn't a football practice where you allocate a certain percentage of time to stretching and film study. The folks that have had their businesses destroyed aren't sitting around worried about Mr Floyd all that much I bet.
So yeah these specific posts of mine have been about rioting and looting. Seeing Cook tweet about that irked me because that is terrible and their shouldn't be anyone rationalizing or attempting to justify it either let alone ignore it. I've said multiple times that racism is terrible and the killing of folks over it is worse. If I got to put that in bold all caps at the beginning of my posts or the middle or the end just let me know...
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
One thing that is apparent when reading this thread is that there are two distinct issues here that need to be discussed in a fair and open manner (I mean that as a civilization, not just this thread). They are not mutually exclusive.
One - which is the most important - is the issue of race relations and the insidious nature of institutionalized racism. This is at the very heart of what drives these reactions. Focusing on JUST the reactions does indeed deflect from the primary issue. What I do find frustrating, though, is that the message can easily get lost in the delivery - rioting and looting defeats the very purpose of expression, as both almost invariably become the focus in and of themselves, and ultimately become "self-diverting."
Two, the organized action of civil disobedience, which can devolve into acts of violence and destruction. The impetus is a variety of things, including pent-up frustration and anger within those that feel oppressed, and the need of some to simply instill chaos into our society. Each individual that becomes involved in these acts has their own inherent motivations. What's exceedingly difficult, however, is for law enforcement, or even simple observers, to make that distinction in the heat of the moment, so participants run the risk of getting lumped together and potentially unjustly labeled.
I will add that IMO we have to be careful how we define "whataboutism" and deflection. Those kinds of pejorative terms can be a significant deterrent to the ultimate goal of open discussion, as they create a sense of fear in people that, if they speak up, they run the risk of being labeled as racist, ignorant, suffering from "white privilege," etc., so they shut up. That "shutting up" is part of the problem. We need to be promoting discussion, not hindering it.
One - which is the most important - is the issue of race relations and the insidious nature of institutionalized racism. This is at the very heart of what drives these reactions. Focusing on JUST the reactions does indeed deflect from the primary issue. What I do find frustrating, though, is that the message can easily get lost in the delivery - rioting and looting defeats the very purpose of expression, as both almost invariably become the focus in and of themselves, and ultimately become "self-diverting."
Two, the organized action of civil disobedience, which can devolve into acts of violence and destruction. The impetus is a variety of things, including pent-up frustration and anger within those that feel oppressed, and the need of some to simply instill chaos into our society. Each individual that becomes involved in these acts has their own inherent motivations. What's exceedingly difficult, however, is for law enforcement, or even simple observers, to make that distinction in the heat of the moment, so participants run the risk of getting lumped together and potentially unjustly labeled.
I will add that IMO we have to be careful how we define "whataboutism" and deflection. Those kinds of pejorative terms can be a significant deterrent to the ultimate goal of open discussion, as they create a sense of fear in people that, if they speak up, they run the risk of being labeled as racist, ignorant, suffering from "white privilege," etc., so they shut up. That "shutting up" is part of the problem. We need to be promoting discussion, not hindering it.
RobHowe
Administrator
Focusing on looting and rioting is a way of blaming blacks for something bad when it's clear there are people of all races and militant organizations trying to cause trouble. It's obvious that's what's being focused on here.
Let's talk about looting and rioting caused by black people but not on what is really happening.
I have no problem calling out whataboutism and pointing out white privilege for fear of offending people who are afraid of being labeled a racist. We've had years for discussion. Kap tried to spark discussion peacefully. Change is not happening fast enough.
Let's talk about looting and rioting caused by black people but not on what is really happening.
I have no problem calling out whataboutism and pointing out white privilege for fear of offending people who are afraid of being labeled a racist. We've had years for discussion. Kap tried to spark discussion peacefully. Change is not happening fast enough.
Ree4
Well-Known Member
Think you left out the white supremacists too
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Ree4
Well-Known Member
Might want to read up before speculating..
https://www.today.com/food/let-my-b...nneapolis-restaurant-supports-protest-t182789
"Let my building burn, justice needs to be served,” Ruhel said, according to the post. Those words seemed to resonate with fans and followers, causing the post to be shared more than 20,000 times.
The post continued: "Gandhi Mahal May have felt the flames last night, but our firey drive to help protect and stand with our community will never die! Peace be with everyone."
"I felt like we can rebuild with bricks, but we cannot rebuild people's life, and we have lost a lot of life," he said.
"And you know, it just came to a point where this is the only way that a change could happen ... And it wasn't until this much had to happen for them to just get that officer in custody.
"That tells you a lot about how our system works and how far we need to take it so black lives in America can get the justice they deserve."
"It's not just the death of George Floyd. People are being racially profiled every day. And I want people to be aware. I want the system to change. I want to see real change. Everyone's tired of seeing people being wrongfully treated and wrongfully killed. It's not OK."
So she's the one that is...
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if that is a response to my post, but, to be clear, I'm not espousing the idea of ignoring whataboutism or attempts at deflection. I've called both out on several occasions with family and friends. In some cases, it helped them see things differently. In others, it just led to irrational arguing and wasn't worth the effort. I'm just pointing out that we have to be a little careful to distinguish both from genuine discourse and attempts at understanding. Doing so can deter discussion, not promote it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your last three sentences seem to imply that the time for discussion is over anyway. If that's the case, what are you proposing? Just found that curious.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
Those are some revealing statements. Thanks for sharing that.
Couldn't disagree more. I'm sure some probably have with that intent. But that shouldn't be the case for most and it isn't with me. They're are plenty of whites getting in on the action of looting/rioting if not more probably. Trying to read between the lines of what everyone says all the time can be touchy. So when I point it out and your mind goes strait to the oh he's just a deflecting racist card that's on you. Not me. I mean what I say and say what I mean.
I will agree change hasn't happened fast enough.
Rob, your first sentence doesn't make sense. You say yourself it's all races causing trouble, so why do you say people are blaming blacks? I'm in no way trying to be a smart ass here, but I'm pretty sure that's unconscious bias kicking in. There are definitely more blacks protesting, but from all the stuff I've seen, the looting and vandalism is pretty 50/50.
Everybody also knows that cops killing people is bad.
Oh no not at all. It surprises me that that person exists though. Not gonna lie. That is not what most would think in that situation. She's a bit of a unicorn I would bet.
Ree4
Well-Known Member
Do they?
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