Cook: Better Without?

NikeHawk21 said:
I saw you post this in another thread and don’t fully understand.

2014: Play-in 11 seed (Lose Marble best player)
2015: 7 seed (Lose White best player)
2016: 7 seed (Lose Uthoff best player)

So those are two years in a row where we lost our best player and got better or at least maintained. But that’s completely different because we are talking about losing a guy early. I just simply laid out the devils advocate argument why we COULD be better without Cook.

Edit: is Cook even the best player on Iowa?
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None of that means those teams improved BECAUSE they lost the players you mentioned. Those teams may have improved, but add Marble, White, etc. and those teams are probably even better than they were without them.

That said, lose Uthoff in 2016, and Iowa most certainly was not a better team in 2016-17.

If you ask me, this whole conversation smacks of a "we don't want him anyway" type of defense mechanism in preparation for Cook's possible departure. I don't think losing him is going to help this team next year.
 
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NikeHawk21 said:
Funny what a difference a year makes in trollville. Last year it was dumb that JBo made the all freshman team but this year Garza making it proves he isn’t that great. I haven’t looked at this list yet but I think Garza got snubbed.

Also you used to be a big fan of advanced stats, including PER. See my above post, but almost every advanced stat including PER favors Garza over Cook. Thoughts?
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NikeHawk21 said:
Funny what a difference a year makes in trollville. Last year it was dumb that JBo made the all freshman team but this year Garza making it proves he isn’t that great. I haven’t looked at this list yet but I think Garza got snubbed.

Also you used to be a big fan of advanced stats, including PER. See my above post, but almost every advanced stat including PER favors Garza over Cook. Thoughts?
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Advanced stats say Cook is a better defender than Wagner which I disagree with. Cook is a better defender than Garza by quite a wide margin in my opinion. Garza is a really poor defender which is probably why he didn't get on the all freshman team. His numbers were there offensively and if he was better defensively I think he would have gotten it over Fernando. Long story short, Tyler Cook is our best player and I'm surprised people would disagree with that.
 
Iowa will have better players next year because they will be older,but Fran does have a history of player regress. The only real explanation that I can see is mental regress. Another word for that is abuse.

I don't know what game some of you are watching and have so much disdain for Cook. Part of the problem is that he doesn't get help up top. Garza and Kriner look better because of Cook. If I'm thinking right, Uhl doesn't get a lot of minutes w Cook in the game.

This is a topic that should be off limits because of the body of work in this case.
 
It's funny how so many people watch all these games and bitch about how bad the team it and can't see how Cook is a monstrous part of the problem. People are always distracted by flashy things.

It's ironic as hell.
 
1977Hawkeye said:
None of that means those teams improved BECAUSE they lost the players you mentioned. Those teams may have improved, but add Marble, White, etc. and those teams are probably even better than they were without them.

That said, lose Uthoff in 2016, and Iowa most certainly was not a better team in 2016-17.

If you ask me, this whole conversation smacks of a "we don't want him anyway" type of defense mechanism in preparation for Cook's possible departure. I think we're better with him than without.
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Agreed on the first point you made which is exactly why I don’t understand what DD is saying. It’s two different scenarios.
 
Hawk5656 said:
Advanced stats say Cook is a better defender than Wagner which I disagree with. Cook is a better defender than Garza by quite a wide margin in my opinion. Garza is a really poor defender which is probably why he didn't get on the all freshman team. His numbers were there offensively and if he was better defensively I think he would have gotten it over Fernando. Long story short, Tyler Cook is our best player and I'm surprised people would disagree with that.
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Lol. So we have on record that the champion of advanced stats doesn’t agree with them anymore? Hahaha.

And actually no they don’t favor Cook to Wagner on defense. DWS doesn’t account for minutes played, which you’d have to adjust for, which would favor Wagner. DBPM also favors Wagner. DBPM favors Wagner and Drating favors Cook. Advanced defensive stats are somewhat flawed as we know.

Okay this is my last response to you troll man. I was hoping this could be a decent thread.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
Lol. So we have on record that the champion of advanced stats doesn’t agree with them anymore? Hahaha.

And actually no they don’t favor Cook to Wagner on defense. DWS doesn’t account for minutes played, which you’d have to adjust for, which would favor Wagner. DBPM also favors Wagner. DBPM favors Wagner and Drating favors Cook. Advanced defensive stats are somewhat flawed as we know.

Okay this is my last response to you troll man. I was hoping this could be a decent thread.
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Didn't read much of the stupid banter, but based on this thread the wrong person is being called a troll. Fact is the whole team is deficient on D. We have no real defenders in the middle or anywhere else for that matter.

Wait and see what happens to point production with Cook gone.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
Lol. So we have on record that the champion of advanced stats doesn’t agree with them anymore? Hahaha.

And actually no they don’t favor Cook to Wagner on defense. DWS doesn’t account for minutes played, which you’d have to adjust for, which would favor Wagner. DBPM also favors Wagner. DBPM favors Wagner and Drating favors Cook. Advanced defensive stats are somewhat flawed as we know.

Okay this is my last response to you troll man. I was hoping this could be a decent thread.
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Tyler is our best player and I'm a troll for saying that. Haha that's rich!
 
HawkGold said:
Didn't read much of the stupid banter, but based on this thread the wrong person is being called a troll. Fact is the whole team is deficient on D. We have no real defenders in the middle or anywhere else for that matter.

Wait and see what happens to point production with Cook gone.
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Well reading helps because as I wrote I would rather keep Cook than lose him for a variety of reasons. I was just playing devils advocate and arguing why the loss might not be as big as some are making it out to be.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
Well reading helps because as I wrote I would rather keep Cook than lose him for a variety of reasons. I was just playing devils advocate and arguing why the loss might not be as big as some are making it out to be.
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OK, got it. I've seen him do it before so I was surprised.
 
Bigtenchamp said:
It's funny how so many people watch all these games and bitch about how bad the team it and can't see how Cook is a monstrous part of the problem. People are always distracted by flashy things.

It's ironic as hell.
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it also isn't true. THE problem this team/program has is a lack of foot speed on the perimeter and a lack of ability to take the opponent off the dribble. Cook is actually the best or 2nd best on the team at taking his man off the dribble. Cook requires...requires a double team. And if you're saying Cook is a bad defensive player, you're wrong. We play so much zone (see lack of foot speed on the perimeter) that our bigs have to come over and leave their area; which allows open shots underneath. Cook is NOT the problem. Lack of foot speed and perimeter ball handlers who can beat their man off the dribble, are.
 
ArvadaHawk said:
it also isn't true. THE problem this team/program has is a lack of foot speed on the perimeter and a lack of ability to take the opponent off the dribble. Cook is actually the best or 2nd best on the team at taking his man off the dribble. Cook requires...requires a double team. And if you're saying Cook is a bad defensive player, you're wrong. We play so much zone (see lack of foot speed on the perimeter) that our bigs have to come over and leave their area; which allows open shots underneath. Cook is NOT the problem. Lack of foot speed and perimeter ball handlers who can beat their man off the dribble, are.
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I totally agree on the need for perimeter defenders. You say we need a perimeter ball handler who can beat his guy off the dribble, but we currently rank 23rd in adjusted offensive efficiency, so I don’t think that’s a real issue.

You are wrong about TC’s defense though, it is bad. See my OP for more of the numbers behind it. In terms of bigs who play I’d rank him behind Kriener, Nunge, Garza, and Wagner. He’s probably better than Pemsl on D.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
Remember before everyone starts calling me an idiot, I understand Cook is a really good player and I don’t want to lose him. I’m just playing devils advocate with the argument.
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Between the points of finding a player that can hit the 15 jumper, better defender, etc.., I think you can find someone to fill the void. You may miss that inside game a bit with the rattling dunks, but I think the point differential would be in the 7-10 pt range. Again, Iowa's issue this year wasn't so much offense, it was defense. I think the points will be there.

I like Cook and he was a joy to watch and really came on strong at the end, but I think there are ingredients to maintain the production.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
I totally agree on the need for perimeter defenders. You say we need a perimeter ball handler who can beat his guy off the dribble, but we currently rank 23rd in adjusted offensive efficiency, so I don’t think that’s a real issue.

You are wrong about TC’s defense though, it is bad. See my OP for more of the numbers behind it. In terms of bigs who play I’d rank him behind Kriener, Nunge, Garza, and Wagner. He’s probably better than Pemsl on D.
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Cook gets double-teamed most games for most of the game. that would make offensive rebounding difficult when you would need to work through 2 defenders to get an off rebound. As for def rebounding, Cook plays 4 on def and he's closer to the wing. Cook is not an average anything, other than ft shooter. Scoring efficiency, well, if you have 2 defenders guarding Cook, that leaves Iowa 4 on 3, so we damn-well better be efficient. But, go back and watch and see how difficult it is for us to initiate our offense and watch our guards dribbling back and forth instead of north and south.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
Remember before everyone starts calling me an idiot, I understand Cook is a really good player and I don’t want to lose him. I’m just playing devils advocate with the argument.
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Shocker! But, I am on board with what you are thinking. He at this point is not the most polished all-around player. He has some components in his game that need work.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
I think we are better next year with Cook, but it’s closer than people are making it out to be.

Another devils advocate side note: there have been teams in the history of basketball that have lost their best player and have been better because of it. It’s possible.
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Completely agree.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
Advance statistics actually favor Garza:

PER:
Garza: 26.6
Cook: 21.8

WS/40:
Garza: .188
Cook: .128

BPM:
Garza: 6.3 (Baer #1 at 6.9)
Cook: 2.9 (6th on team)

O rating:
Garza: 126.6
Cook: 112.1

D rating (lower number is better):
Garza: 108.7
Cook: 110.2
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I've said a few times on this board, if I had a team, I'd pick Garza first.
 
ArvadaHawk said:
Cook gets double-teamed most games for most of the game. that would make offensive rebounding difficult when you would need to work through 2 defenders to get an off rebound. As for def rebounding, Cook plays 4 on def and he's closer to the wing. Cook is not an average anything, other than ft shooter. Scoring efficiency, well, if you have 2 defenders guarding Cook, that leaves Iowa 4 on 3, so we damn-well better be efficient. But, go back and watch and see how difficult it is for us to initiate our offense and watch our guards dribbling back and forth instead of north and south.
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Totally agree. The defensive attention he brings is a factor. Not so much in the rebounding thing you bring up. Guys aren’t doubling him when another guy puts up a shot. He’s just not that relentless on the glass.

Yes we could use another primary ball handler but it’s not the biggest issue to me right now.
 
Hawk5656 said:
Cook was honorable mention all conference by both coaches and media and Luka wasn't even on the all freshman team. Cook is the best player on the team and was the only one the coaches even voted for.
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Because of thunderous dunks, not because of overall play. All those people voting don't look at the whole picture. Many are just as simplistic in thinking as you are.
 
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