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Drakebulldog93

Well-Known Member
They are criticizing everyone that has questions about the Spartans handling of the sexual abuse allegations and cases. Those people are absolutely tone-deaf. Reminds me of the PED state Fiasco. They're definitely circling the wagons.

Anyone that heard Izzo talk about the situation today has to wonder what in the hell is he thinking? It was one of the most uncomfortable Q&A I've ever heard. You can tell he knows the end is near.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
They are criticizing everyone that has questions about the Spartans handling of the sexual abuse allegations and cases. Those people are absolutely tone-deaf. Reminds me of the PED state Fiasco. They're definitely circling the wagons.

Anyone that heard Izzo talk about the situation today has to wonder what in the hell is he thinking? It was one of the most uncomfortable Q&A I've ever heard. You can tell he knows the end is near.
I got to see some of his post game Friday but not yesterday. Did he just say the same thing about not answering anything specific? Or did he deny deny deny like Dantonio did?
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
Lot's of stuff like this:

You're backtracking, not rephrasing. You don't fire people without proof of wrongdoing. Dantonio's program has been investigated thoroughly and has been found completely above board. And Izzo has openly welcomed an investigation into his. Those aren't the words of a man with something to hide.We want justice. We demand it. But we'll be damned if we give into an angry mob.

ESPN would do better making a case with less drama and dramatic effect. I don't pretend to know what went down, and have stated, wait for due process and the truth. That said, ESPN loses credibility when they get so melodramatic. It's way too easy to see through.

Stop parroting Lauren Allswedes bullshit. All these instances except the mystery 2010 assault and the case last year were reported to the authorities by the victim. And in the one last year, our coach followed procedure and those people were brought to justice.
How do you know it's bullshit? She's more of an insider than you've ever been.

I don't know if it's BS or not. But this is way, way too serious for me to automatically stake my flag on "MSU did nothing wrong let's attack this person saying we're bad."

She worked in our counseling center for like seven years.
Guys take off the green glasses for a minute and try to be rational. There may be nothing here, and they may be something horrendous. Exercise caution and hope that if facts can come out they show MSU did the right thing and didn't have a rape culture.
But these ad hominen attacks on Allswede are ridiculous. Since Friday people on have called her a bitch, a cunt, said she deserves what she gets, etc.
Keep it up and we'll deserve every "the Neanderthals at tRCMB area at it again" label that will be assigned.


Allswede is wrong and negligent, but she isn't the devil or anything, she's misguided. I think ESPN used her and this story took a tone that she didn't necessarily intend, and she certainly isn't experienced enough to know what they were getting at. And as others have pointed out, the mystery 2010 case is the only open issue here, everything else was definitively handled by the book. But as I've also stated, why should we believe what ESPN is saying about the 2010 case when the rest of the story is pure garbage? I'll wait to see what actually happened. And here's another thing, just because ESPN wrote a story doesn't mean they get to dictate that there should be an investigation. Nothing Dantonio has done warrants more investigation. This 2010 issue is the only possible thing that needs to be investigated for Izzo, but we have no idea if anything even happened at all do we?

Izzo was beloved by many in the media, but I think it's harder for people to come out and support Izzo after his poor choice of words raised the ire of Raisman's mom. I think if that situation didn't happen, you'd see more benefit of the doubt for him. As for Dantonio, I don't think he's ever been even half as beloved as Izzo was by the media, and some would like to see Dantonio fall because he's a threat to Midwest blueblood programs.

A general statement, from a family member who was a prosecutor. The easiest way to “catch a lie” or merely tell if something really happened is to let them tell the story (like the police report would read, where they take the narrative).
Then ask them to start it from some point in the middle. Then jump to another spot and ask what happened just before that. Ask why, when, and where in between.

People can memorize a narrative, they can even make themselves believe it. But generally, if it really happened, it can be recalled in an out of order manner.

Having read the previously released reports, and statement from Dunnings using the (rare) words “no crime was committed”, I’d say this is what happened in place of your “talked her out of it”.


Izzo also has the disadvantage of currently being in season (and therefore available) while this is all developing, so this will be tougher on him as well.

Right. Let's review. Two MSU players are accused of a crime. The prosecutor's office investigates the incident and publicly concludes no crime was committed before their first practice has even occurred. No coach in America is going to kick those two out at that point.

The lynch mob out for Dantonio and Izzo is concerning because there's something fundamentally anti-American about it. The mob wants to see these two fired over police reports, we aren't even talking about convictions yet. Most of the players accused are black, just a few years ago the progressive left would have been howling over unjust internet convictions of black men over mere allegations in a police report. Now the same group is telling us we have to believe women no matter what, which means suspending our own thought process and ignoring the numerous cases of women faking sexual assaults (Duke lacrosse, UVA frat house etc.).

If you go through all of these cases at MSU two things stand out. First, there hasn't been a single conviction. There probably will be with the football players charged last year but they're still innocent until proven guilty. Even if we isolate that situation, it's clear that MD immediately called the proper authorities when he was told what happened. In the other football cases, players were expelled or left the university. In one case a woman filed a report 7 years after the alleged incident. In basketball, if the prosecutor doesn't take the Payne and Walton case what more is Izzo supposed to do?

It seems to me that for athletes, particularly black athletes, the mob mentality has taken over and they're presumed guilty based on nothing more than a police report. That doesn't sit right with me, everyone is entitled to a presumption of innocence. The rush to blame coaches, as though they're 24/7 babysitters for adults, is also troubling. It's as though they're expected to serve as executioner even if the prosecutor won't prosecute a case.

ESPN has an axe to grind and the twitter social justice warriors repeat nonsense without every verifying the facts. In fact, the facts don't even matter to them because they're pushing a political agenda. I would be shocked if Izzo and Dantonio aren't fired before next season at this point. The mob mentality has taken over and they're out for blood.


 

Fryowa

Administrator
Not defending MSU in any way, shape, or form, but I hope you guys all know that these kinds of things happen at every university with a major sports program. It’s 100% wrong and people who do it should be tossed in the river, not jail...

However, P5 football and basketball players are treated like rock stars by both staff and students alike, and their larger than life personas give them way more assumed power and “untouchableness” than any other students. They’re put on a pedestal and literally think they can get away with anything (and they usually do).

I’m going on record as saying that if you don’t think these things happen in Iowa City then you’re head is in the sand. If you don’t like the thought of it that’s fine, I don’t either...but you’re ignorant. Iowa and any other schools are only different in that they didn’t have a Larry Nassar in the program to open the flood gates.

Let’s not get on our high horses here and shout to the world that no one’s ever been sexually assaulted by an athlete at Iowa and the athlete allowed to continue. That’s a good way to end up eating crow.
 

HawkGold

Well-Known Member
Not defending MSU in any way, shape, or form, but I hope you guys all know that these kinds of things happen at every university with a major sports program. It’s 100% wrong and people who do it should be tossed in the river, not jail...

However, P5 football and basketball players are treated like rock stars by both staff and students alike, and their larger than life personas give them way more assumed power and “untouchableness” than any other students. They’re put on a pedestal and literally think they can get away with anything (and they usually do).

I’m going on record as saying that if you don’t think these things happen in Iowa City then you’re head is in the sand. If you don’t like the thought of it that’s fine, I don’t either...but you’re ignorant. Iowa and any other schools are only different in that they didn’t have a Larry Nassar in the program to open the flood gates.

Let’s not get on our high horses here and shout to the world that no one’s ever been sexually assaulted by an athlete at Iowa and the athlete allowed to continue. That’s a good way to end up eating crow.

Absolutely. Anyone not concerned about the transparency at Iowa is in the sand.

The Doyle award was a huge red flag.
 

homes

Well-Known Member
Not defending MSU in any way, shape, or form, but I hope you guys all know that these kinds of things happen at every university with a major sports program. It’s 100% wrong and people who do it should be tossed in the river, not jail...

However, P5 football and basketball players are treated like rock stars by both staff and students alike, and their larger than life personas give them way more assumed power and “untouchableness” than any other students. They’re put on a pedestal and literally think they can get away with anything (and they usually do).

I’m going on record as saying that if you don’t think these things happen in Iowa City then you’re head is in the sand. If you don’t like the thought of it that’s fine, I don’t either...but you’re ignorant. Iowa and any other schools are only different in that they didn’t have a Larry Nassar in the program to open the flood gates.

Let’s not get on our high horses here and shout to the world that no one’s ever been sexually assaulted by an athlete at Iowa and the athlete allowed to continue. That’s a good way to end up eating crow.
While I generally agree with you, I doubt any reasonable person believes that Iowa has never had this occur, and people should be careful about being self-righteous when drawing comparisons. In fact, it's not limited to the student athletes at Iowa, or any other school, for that matter, but applies to the general student population. It's wrong, it cannot be rationally defended, but it occurs. I think this begs further questions: what does the university do to 1) attempt to prevent it, 2) respond to it, if it becomes known, and 3) act on it, once it has been confirmed. It's near impossible to fully accomplish number 1, bad actors will, unfortunately, get through whatever filters are erected, but certainly it doesn't mean you don't try, but that's why there are No. 2 and No. 3 (if 1 was perfect you wouldn't need 2 and 3). It's not following up on Items 2 and 3 that get schools into trouble. Could this be a problem at Iowa? I suppose, but until something verified comes out, it's hard for me to put Iowa under the cloud of guilty until proven innocent. It's too hard to exist that way.
 

SpiderRico

Well-Known Member
There were just as many people on Hawkeye message boards defending Pierre Pierce as there are on MSU boards defending Izzo/Dantonio....it's called human nature....
 

lightning1

Well-Known Member
I was all over the Baylor message boards when everything went down there and since. Between that, PSU, and now MSU, it appears that total denial is merely a human condition for most people.
I did hear an interesting rumor that one of the players involved in the 2010 sexual assault, ended up transferring to ISU. Care to speculate?
 

lightning1

Well-Known Member
Not defending MSU in any way, shape, or form, but I hope you guys all know that these kinds of things happen at every university with a major sports program. It’s 100% wrong and people who do it should be tossed in the river, not jail...

However, P5 football and basketball players are treated like rock stars by both staff and students alike, and their larger than life personas give them way more assumed power and “untouchableness” than any other students. They’re put on a pedestal and literally think they can get away with anything (and they usually do).

I’m going on record as saying that if you don’t think these things happen in Iowa City then you’re head is in the sand. If you don’t like the thought of it that’s fine, I don’t either...but you’re ignorant. Iowa and any other schools are only different in that they didn’t have a Larry Nassar in the program to open the flood gates.

Let’s not get on our high horses here and shout to the world that no one’s ever been sexually assaulted by an athlete at Iowa and the athlete allowed to continue. That’s a good way to end up eating crow.
It's not the idea that players here never sexually assault women. It's the cover up by University administration that sparks this kind of outrage. If you are suggesting that the Iowa administration does similar things, I'd have to see some proof of this. I recall KF kicking several players off the team, over the years, for these types of things. That doesn't mean that the administration followed all of the steps with title IX but I'd say there was a good chance they have. of course, I wouldn't trust Gary Barta with a potato gun....so
 

Fryowa

Administrator
While I generally agree with you, I doubt any reasonable person believes that Iowa has never had this occur, and people should be careful about being self-righteous when drawing comparisons. In fact, it's not limited to the student athletes at Iowa, or any other school, for that matter, but applies to the general student population. It's wrong, it cannot be rationally defended, but it occurs. I think this begs further questions: what does the university do to 1) attempt to prevent it, 2) respond to it, if it becomes known, and 3) act on it, once it has been confirmed. It's near impossible to fully accomplish number 1, bad actors will, unfortunately, get through whatever filters are erected, but certainly it doesn't mean you don't try, but that's why there are No. 2 and No. 3 (if 1 was perfect you wouldn't need 2 and 3). It's not following up on Items 2 and 3 that get schools into trouble. Could this be a problem at Iowa? I suppose, but until something verified comes out, it's hard for me to put Iowa under the cloud of guilty until proven innocent. It's too hard to exist that way.
I agree with most of your sentiment, but how picky are you going to get re: Iowa?

There's a reason our current head wrestling coach didn't win a HS state title his senior year. He was given the boot because he pulled a train with three other guys in Sheldon. The girl said it was rape and didn't come back to school for several days, he said it was willing. Right or wrong, the girl said it was rape and that's all it takes. He wasn't charged with a crime but neither are many of the players being accused in the MSU case (btw, I'm not saying they're innocent so don't accuse me of that).

Are you going to give him a pass because it happened in the 80s and now everyone thinks he's a great dude? If so what's the difference between the 80s and 2000s when the MSU stuff was supposed to have occurred? Is there a time limit we should use? Because if you boil it all down, we have someone who was accused of rape as the head coach of a UOI sports program. He admitted to the encounter and details are grey, but that's got to be as serious as what Dantonio and Izzo did, doesn't it? In the 80s the statutory rape age was 14 so he didn't get hit with that. What about now; is it different because the law is different now? Here's the Supreme Court decision on the appeal. It deals with whether he got due process, not the facts of the assault.

What about KF not taking action on the Everson/Satterfield sexual assault until a month later and then only suspending the players? Don't give me any bullshit defending KF in this particular situation or you're no different than the posters on the MSU board. It doesn't (apparently) matter why he waited a month. He did it. Right?

The University even went so far as to go to the Iowa Supreme Court to keep the records of how the assault was handled from public knowledge.

I think we all remember how Alford did such an excellent job handling Pierre Pierce, right?


How deep do we go?

What I'm getting at here is that right/wrong, guilty, or innocent, these are very, very muddy waters. We live in a big glass house guys; throw stones if you want but don't be surprised if you get cut.
 
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Fryowa

Administrator
It's not the idea that players here never sexually assault women. It's the cover up by University administration that sparks this kind of outrage. If you are suggesting that the Iowa administration does similar things, I'd have to see some proof of this. I recall KF kicking several players off the team, over the years, for these types of things. That doesn't mean that the administration followed all of the steps with title IX but I'd say there was a good chance they have. of course, I wouldn't trust Gary Barta with a potato gun....so
See my post directly above this one. I don't have the time nor the interest to do more research so you're more than welcome to. I'm cool with it if we don't agree.
 
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SteveGarvey1

Well-Known Member
I agree with most of your sentiment, but how picky are you going to get re: Iowa?

There's a reason our current head wrestling coach didn't win a HS state title his senior year. He was given the boot because he pulled a train with three other guys in Sheldon. The girl said it was rape and didn't come back to school for several days, he said it was willing. Right or wrong, the girl said it was rape and that's all it takes. He wasn't charged with a crime but neither are many of the players being accused in the MSU case (btw, I'm not saying they're innocent so don't accuse me of that).

Are you going to give him a pass because it happened in the 80s and now everyone thinks he's a great dude? If so what's the difference between the 80s and 2000s when the MSU stuff was supposed to have occurred? Is there a time limit we should use? Because if you boil it all down, we have someone who was accused of rape as the head coach of a UOI sports program. He admitted to the encounter and details are grey, but that's got to be as serious as what Dantonio and Izzo did, doesn't it? In the 80s the statutory rape age was 14 so he didn't get hit with that. What about now; is it different because the law is different now? Here's the Supreme Court decision on the appeal. It deals with whether he got due process, not the facts of the assault.

What about KF not taking action on the Everson/Satterfield sexual assault until a month later and then only suspending the players? Don't give me any bullshit defending KF in this particular situation or you're no different than the posters on the MSU board. It doesn't (apparently) matter why he waited a month. He did it. Right?

The University even went so far as to go to the Iowa Supreme Court to keep the records of how the assault was handled from public knowledge.

I think we all remember how Alford did such an excellent job handling Pierre Pierce, right?


How deep do we go?

What I'm getting at here is that right/wrong, guilty, or innocent, these are very, very muddy waters. We live in a big glass house guys; throw stones if you want but don't be surprised if you get cut.

Those are all good points, but awareness has heightened these days compared to the 00's, 90's and 80's and the sheer amount of accusations against MSU as compared to Iowa are not comparable.

But good points nonetheless.
 

Fryowa

Administrator
Those are all good points, but awareness has heightened these days compared to the 00's, 90's and 80's and the sheer amount of accusations against MSU as compared to Iowa are not comparable.

But good points nonetheless.
So if this was MSU or some other B1G wrestling coach would you hold the same opinion about the era it occurred in? Because that's the crux of the whole thing.
 

#1DieHardHawk

Well-Known Member
Just my two cents, but there is no doubt that improprieties occur across the college landscape. Each and every institution has skeletons in its closet, including Iowa, or even Cornell College for that matter.

That said, sometimes it's a matter of degree. The sickening exploits of an MSU doctor sexually molesting potentially hundreds of teenage girls, and the alleged faculty cover up, isn't the moral equivalent of a college athlete getting trashed and sexually assaulting someone at a party. Not diminishing the latter at all, or condoning it, but what's currently going on at MSU is another level completely. At the very least, it should be interesting to see how this plays out.
 

Fryowa

Administrator
The sickening exploits of an MSU doctor sexually molesting potentially hundreds of teenage girls, and the alleged faculty cover up, isn't the moral equivalent of a college athlete getting trashed and sexually assaulting someone at a party.
I agree with that statement. My post was more to demonstrate that our own house isn't even in order, and those are just the things that we outsiders know about. Before anyone goes on a board slamming MSU fans it would be good to remember that...

1) Hawkeye fans would do the exact same thing if KF and Fran were as successful as Dantonio and Izzo. Like @SpiderRico mentioned above, it's human nature.

2) Iowa and any other major school is just one OTL report away from being chin deep in shit.
 

homes

Well-Known Member
I agree with most of your sentiment, but how picky are you going to get re: Iowa?

There's a reason our current head wrestling coach didn't win a HS state title his senior year. He was given the boot because he pulled a train with three other guys in Sheldon. The girl said it was rape and didn't come back to school for several days, he said it was willing. Right or wrong, the girl said it was rape and that's all it takes. He wasn't charged with a crime but neither are many of the players being accused in the MSU case (btw, I'm not saying they're innocent so don't accuse me of that).

Are you going to give him a pass because it happened in the 80s and now everyone thinks he's a great dude? If so what's the difference between the 80s and 2000s when the MSU stuff was supposed to have occurred? Is there a time limit we should use? Because if you boil it all down, we have someone who was accused of rape as the head coach of a UOI sports program. He admitted to the encounter and details are grey, but that's got to be as serious as what Dantonio and Izzo did, doesn't it? In the 80s the statutory rape age was 14 so he didn't get hit with that. What about now; is it different because the law is different now? Here's the Supreme Court decision on the appeal. It deals with whether he got due process, not the facts of the assault.

What about KF not taking action on the Everson/Satterfield sexual assault until a month later and then only suspending the players? Don't give me any bullshit defending KF in this particular situation or you're no different than the posters on the MSU board. It doesn't (apparently) matter why he waited a month. He did it. Right?

The University even went so far as to go to the Iowa Supreme Court to keep the records of how the assault was handled from public knowledge.

I think we all remember how Alford did such an excellent job handling Pierre Pierce, right?


How deep do we go?

What I'm getting at here is that right/wrong, guilty, or innocent, these are very, very muddy waters. We live in a big glass house guys; throw stones if you want but don't be surprised if you get cut.
I'm not drawing distinctions on the notion that doing so justifies one behavior and condemns the other, particularly on this issue. It's sad that this even occurs, and isn't an arena to be throwing stones because there is no such thing as a justifiable or explainable sexual assault, to that, I completely agree. However, while mistakes can be made, it's also how one responds to them that should be considered in the overall evaluation. Has Iowa made mistakes in this area, no doubt. Is it an ongoing pattern? I hope not. I am going to believe it isn't and will be severely disappointed in my school if it is.
 

lightning1

Well-Known Member
See my post directly above this one. I don't have the time nor the interest do do more research so you're more than welcome to. I'm cool with it if we don't agree.
Yep. I didn't recall that incident correctly. Exactly the same thing Izzo/Dantonio are accused of. I retract my earlier statement.
 

lightning1

Well-Known Member
I'll never understand telling the coach/AD but not going to the police. Seems to me it's an all or nothing decision.
 

BryceC

Well-Known Member
I did hear an interesting rumor that one of the players involved in the 2010 sexual assault, ended up transferring to ISU. Care to speculate?

Why would I want to? From what I know those guys liked to smoke a lot of weed, and that's why they were kicked off. I don't know either of them personally. Why would I want to go guessing who might be a rapist based on internet speculation? Sounds like a truly awful hobby.
 

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