Chauvin Verdict

[Stanzi]

With the jurors coming back with a unanimous verdict so quickly (relatively speaking) I was pretty sure he was going to be guilty on all 3 counts. Waters is an idiot but that's not going to change anything on appeal. He will likely get 12.5 years with opportunity for parole in 8 or so.

 

[okeefe4prez]

My fear is we've created an environment where the police have no choice but to just let criminals run whenever they want. If you don't hold them down, they get up, start fighting, and either the cop dies or is forced to shoot the criminal and riots start and he goes to jail. If you do hold them down and they happen to die, riots start and you go to. No choice but to let them go. Then criminals realize that and always run. I think they already have started that. Not good.

Yeah, people will respond to incentives. My neighbor is in the state law enforcement division here and he said one cop has already gotten killed by policy changes. The cops had a guy pulled over on the interstate and he refused to get out of the car. New policy is the cops can't hog tie the suspect and the suspect weighed about 280 and wasn't getting out of the car. Pulled out into traffic with the cops holding his arms and got bashed by a tractor trailer. Cop died on the scene. Suspect pending trial for murder.

My cousin was a big dude who had a major meth problem. The cops almost killed him once because the spray and taser couldn't take him down. I seriously have no idea how to write a policy to take down a big guy that is going to be "socially acceptable" to all the Monday morning QBs and trial lawyers.

 

[PCHawk]

Yeah, people will respond to incentives. My neighbor is in the state law enforcement division here and he said one cop has already gotten killed by policy changes. The cops had a guy pulled over on the interstate and he refused to get out of the car. New policy is the cops can't hog tie the suspect and the suspect weighed about 280 and wasn't getting out of the car. Pulled out into traffic with the cops holding his arms and got bashed by a tractor trailer. Cop died on the scene. Suspect pending trial for murder.

My cousin was a big dude who had a major meth problem. The cops almost killed him once because the spray and taser couldn't take him down. I seriously have no idea how to write a policy to take down a big guy that is going to be "socially acceptable" to all the Monday morning QBs and trial lawyers.

And then the media and some politicians paint a picture that a black guy has a good chance of getting killed when they get pulled over. What's that do? Scares the guy into resisting, which greatly increases the chances of him getting killed. Just don't resist ever. Your chances of getting killed by a cop is just barely higher than zero. The occasional accident will still happen so it's not quite zero. But its damn close.

I know that cops can be pricks and they really need trained better on de-escalating, but it's brutal when a cop makes a mistake because a criminal is being a criminal, then the cop's life is ruined because of it. I'm not saying this particular case falls into the brutal category, but some of them do.

Like the tazer lady for instance. The biggest gaf of all time. Her mistake was like an NFL guy getting an interception and running the wrong way. It's almost unfathomable that you can have such a brain fart. But that brain fart would never happen if a criminal wasn't being a criminal.

 

[HawkGold]

I think the way to look at this is to separate why Black behavior tends to be what it is from why police behavior is what it is. Though the "why" needs fixed, what is going on with police/minority interaction needs to be discussed.

I grew up in a law enforcement family.

My take is independent of "black" behavior.

I'll begin by looking at NCAA sports. We know it's broken. Yet little is done about the corruption (except the blue bloods did take a hit this year as they are trying to recover from the shoe scandal. We would be naive to think that law enforcement is without corruption.

The system needs to be fixed. Yes, there are "bad" cops. However, the system is a major part of the problem. Training is poor. Politicians do influence police actions. That needs to be highly vetted out. There is a warrior mentality in law enforcement. There is a godlike mentality to police decisions. Think of people you know at work who don't get called out for bad behavior. Behavior gets worse.

I don't know about the Lady Taser cop except that what she did was terrible. I know enough cops that someone should NEVER have mistaken a gun for a taser.

She either committed murder or something really impaired her judgment. PTSD is rampant in law enforcement. Officers with PTSD are often given a pass. We have a local lady cop who admittedly has ptsd. She should not be allowed to be on the streets, but she is. When you interact with her she seems to look for an excuse to blow someone's head off. My guess is she has PTSD, which clouded her thoughts which could range from a bad choice under stress or a form of murder.

We had a shootout between a militia guy and the local police. There were harassing him. The officer who was hit had ptsd and made the decision to leave law enformcement. The lady wasn't hit. Where her ptsd comes from that or earlier, who knows. In that shootout a State Trooper was trying to get to the shooting from 40 miles away. In a city of 100k, he was driving w/o lights and siren at 100+ miles per hour and broadsided a 28 yo mother of 2 in a minivan who had some pot chemicals in her blood. The state police immediately made a deal out of her pot consumption. He was found guilty of being wreckless and got probation. He retired from injuries, but he wasn't going to get his job back. We need to hold police accountable and that means governments and law enforcement leaders regardless of "black" behavior.

Bad cops exist. However, the system is broken. Airline pilots after an accident are heavily evaluated for PTSD impact and some lose their license regardless of wrong doing. If they aren't fit to fly they aren't fit to fly. We need to do a deeper dive into police ptsd, corruption, and of course training. The system is problematic.

We should be able to fix police issues quicker than we can racial/cultural issues which are independent.

 

[tweeterhawk]

Something to consider:

Had George Floyd been white, would there have been the same worldwide attention and outrage to a suspect’s death at the hands of police?

 

[PCHawk]

Something to consider:

Had George Floyd been white, would there have been the same worldwide attention and outrage to a suspect’s death at the hands of police?

We know the answer to that because in the past a black cop has had a white suspect die underneath him exactly like Floyd did

 

[PCHawk]

I think the way to look at this is to separate why Black behavior tends to be what it is from why police behavior is what it is. Though the "why" needs fixed, what is going on with police/minority interaction needs to be discussed.

I grew up in a law enforcement family.

My take is independent of "black" behavior.

I'll begin by looking at NCAA sports. We know it's broken. Yet little is done about the corruption (except the blue bloods did take a hit this year as they are trying to recover from the shoe scandal. We would be naive to think that law enforcement is without corruption.

The system needs to be fixed. Yes, there are "bad" cops. However, the system is a major part of the problem. Training is poor. Politicians do influence police actions. That needs to be highly vetted out. There is a warrior mentality in law enforcement. There is a godlike mentality to police decisions. Think of people you know at work who don't get called out for bad behavior. Behavior gets worse.

I don't know about the Lady Taser cop except that what she did was terrible. I know enough cops that someone should NEVER have mistaken a gun for a taser.

She either committed murder or something really impaired her judgment. PTSD is rampant in law enforcement. Officers with PTSD are often given a pass. We have a local lady cop who admittedly has ptsd. She should not be allowed to be on the streets, but she is. When you interact with her she seems to look for an excuse to blow someone's head off. My guess is she has PTSD, which clouded her thoughts which could range from a bad choice under stress or a form of murder.

We had a shootout between a militia guy and the local police. There were harassing him. The officer who was hit had ptsd and made the decision to leave law enformcement. The lady wasn't hit. Where her ptsd comes from that or earlier, who knows. In that shootout a State Trooper was trying to get to the shooting from 40 miles away. In a city of 100k, he was driving w/o lights and siren at 100+ miles per hour and broadsided a 28 yo mother of 2 in a minivan who had some pot chemicals in her blood. The state police immediately made a deal out of her pot consumption. He was found guilty of being wreckless and got probation. He retired from injuries, but he wasn't going to get his job back. We need to hold police accountable and that means governments and law enforcement leaders regardless of "black" behavior.

Bad cops exist. However, the system is broken. Airline pilots after an accident are heavily evaluated for PTSD impact and some lose their license regardless of wrong doing. If they aren't fit to fly they aren't fit to fly. We need to do a deeper dive into police ptsd, corruption, and of course training. The system is problematic.

We should be able to fix police issues quicker than we can racial/cultural issues which are independent.

I think a huge issue with cops is they're trained to intimidate people into submission. It's a terrible tactic because it causes people to fear for their own life and do something stupid.

Did you see the video of the army guy getting mased? The guy said he's afraid to get out of the car and the cop replied "you should be". He should never be a cop again after that ridiculous reply, let alone what happened after.

Cops having a power trip is a huge problem. Criminals not respecting the cops is a huge problem. Black people thinking cops are out to kill them is a huge problem. The last one is the biggest problem and the most unnecessary problem. It's also the easiest to fix. Just treat all cop screwups the same reguardless of race and maybe black people won't fear for their lives/hate cops and won't do stupid shit near as often when they get pulled over. As it is you can't blame black people for acting like they do because they're told by everyone from their parents to the media that if a cop pulls them over they will probably die. It's ridiculous.

 

[PCHawk]

I think the way to look at this is to separate why Black behavior tends to be what it is from why police behavior is what it is. Though the "why" needs fixed, what is going on with police/minority interaction needs to be discussed.

I grew up in a law enforcement family.

My take is independent of "black" behavior.

I'll begin by looking at NCAA sports. We know it's broken. Yet little is done about the corruption (except the blue bloods did take a hit this year as they are trying to recover from the shoe scandal. We would be naive to think that law enforcement is without corruption.

The system needs to be fixed. Yes, there are "bad" cops. However, the system is a major part of the problem. Training is poor. Politicians do influence police actions. That needs to be highly vetted out. There is a warrior mentality in law enforcement. There is a godlike mentality to police decisions. Think of people you know at work who don't get called out for bad behavior. Behavior gets worse.

I don't know about the Lady Taser cop except that what she did was terrible. I know enough cops that someone should NEVER have mistaken a gun for a taser.

She either committed murder or something really impaired her judgment. PTSD is rampant in law enforcement. Officers with PTSD are often given a pass. We have a local lady cop who admittedly has ptsd. She should not be allowed to be on the streets, but she is. When you interact with her she seems to look for an excuse to blow someone's head off. My guess is she has PTSD, which clouded her thoughts which could range from a bad choice under stress or a form of murder.

We had a shootout between a militia guy and the local police. There were harassing him. The officer who was hit had ptsd and made the decision to leave law enformcement. The lady wasn't hit. Where her ptsd comes from that or earlier, who knows. In that shootout a State Trooper was trying to get to the shooting from 40 miles away. In a city of 100k, he was driving w/o lights and siren at 100+ miles per hour and broadsided a 28 yo mother of 2 in a minivan who had some pot chemicals in her blood. The state police immediately made a deal out of her pot consumption. He was found guilty of being wreckless and got probation. He retired from injuries, but he wasn't going to get his job back. We need to hold police accountable and that means governments and law enforcement leaders regardless of "black" behavior.

Bad cops exist. However, the system is broken. Airline pilots after an accident are heavily evaluated for PTSD impact and some lose their license regardless of wrong doing. If they aren't fit to fly they aren't fit to fly. We need to do a deeper dive into police ptsd, corruption, and of course training. The system is problematic.

We should be able to fix police issues quicker than we can racial/cultural issues which are independent.

The taser lady just completely brain farted what she had in her hand. You could tell plain as day from her reaction after. If she was smart enough to scream "taser taser" as a pre meditated cover up before the shot, then a good enough actor to say "I shot him" with a perfect tone that expresses surprise, she would also be smart enough to know she is fucked for life if that's the way she chooses to get her fix of killing black people. If she was that smart and that motivated to kill black people, she would do it in secrecy instead of on duty in front of a camera.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

My fear is we've created an environment where the police have no choice but to just let criminals run whenever they want. If you don't hold them down, they get up, start fighting, and either the cop dies or is forced to shoot the criminal and riots start and he goes to jail. If you do hold them down and they happen to die, riots start and you go to. No choice but to let them go. Then criminals realize that and always run. I think they already have started that. Not good.

This mind frame of the young all started when we stopped beating children or when they had the fear of being beaten.

We've given children the upper hand and it goes with them into young adulthood. My wife works with behavior kids in school and these fuckers are out of control. No fear of consequences at all. They really need to be in boot camp schools where they get the fucking shit scared out of them, have discipline and schedules.

Hell, police now will let the rioting happen as they feel the damage would be less than trying to arrest them. Now it's a liability when arresting an individual.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Yeah, people will respond to incentives. My neighbor is in the state law enforcement division here and he said one cop has already gotten killed by policy changes. The cops had a guy pulled over on the interstate and he refused to get out of the car. New policy is the cops can't hog tie the suspect and the suspect weighed about 280 and wasn't getting out of the car. Pulled out into traffic with the cops holding his arms and got bashed by a tractor trailer. Cop died on the scene. Suspect pending trial for murder.

My cousin was a big dude who had a major meth problem. The cops almost killed him once because the spray and taser couldn't take him down. I seriously have no idea how to write a policy to take down a big guy that is going to be "socially acceptable" to all the Monday morning QBs and trial lawyers.

I really need to eat more pizza!

 

[HuckFinn]

Something to consider:

Had George Floyd been white, would there have been the same worldwide attention and outrage to a suspect’s death at the hands of police?

“What if’s” make no sense, other than as excuses.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

“What if’s” make no sense, other than as excuses.

Still, the answer is no.

 

[HawkGold]

The taser lady just completely brain farted what she had in her hand. You could tell plain as day from her reaction after. If she was smart enough to scream "taser taser" as a pre meditated cover up before the shot, then a good enough actor to say "I shot him" with a perfect tone that expresses surprise, she would also be smart enough to know she is fucked for life if that's the way she chooses to get her fix of killing black people. If she was that smart and that motivated to kill black people, she would do it in secrecy instead of on duty in front of a camera.

First, there is a police mentality that needs changed. Narcissistic personalities (which is plausible can justify themselves. My guess is that she has some level of ptsd that clouded her decision. That decision could have been very wide ranging. The looks on the other officers is interesting (not sure what it means though. The whole thing is tragic, but it happens too often to be a randem.

 

[HawkGold]

I think a huge issue with cops is they're trained to intimidate people into submission. It's a terrible tactic because it causes people to fear for their own life and do something stupid.

Did you see the video of the army guy getting mased? The guy said he's afraid to get out of the car and the cop replied "you should be". He should never be a cop again after that ridiculous reply, let alone what happened after.

Cops having a power trip is a huge problem. Criminals not respecting the cops is a huge problem. Black people thinking cops are out to kill them is a huge problem. The last one is the biggest problem and the most unnecessary problem. It's also the easiest to fix. Just treat all cop screwups the same reguardless of race and maybe black people won't fear for their lives/hate cops and won't do stupid shit near as often when they get pulled over. As it is you can't blame black people for acting like they do because they're told by everyone from their parents to the media that if a cop pulls them over they will probably die. It's ridiculous.

Yes, I did see that. That cop was nuts. Did you see the later version that where the cop was lecturing him while making excuses just before being uncuffed? The Army officer was in a predicament as he was ordered to keep his hands out the window and yet unbuckle his belt at the same time.

There is a new video out of a mom defending her son from a female cop.

It's not just cops on blacks. Had my own ordeal with an Iowa County Sheriff a couple of years ago. The local police actually gave me an apology. The Sheriff was a jerk. I had done nothing wrong (I had legally challenged a local republican representative. He recorded the conversation and wouldn't release it and was trying to intimidate me. I filed a complaint with the Iowa Human Rights Commission and he instantly gave me the recording. The commission gave me the letter permission to sue, but I already had what I wanted so I didn't.

What is needed is for a state/federal system of oversight of local police departments, but most states don't do that. The worst groups that actually receive little attention are the private railroad police. That I only know due to my work with farmers and farm owners.

 

[Chickenlounge]

My fear is we've created an environment where the police have no choice but to just let criminals run whenever they want. If you don't hold them down, they get up, start fighting, and either the cop dies or is forced to shoot the criminal and riots start and he goes to jail. If you do hold them down and they happen to die, riots start and you go to. No choice but to let them go. Then criminals realize that and always run. I think they already have started that. Not good.

That's ridiculous. He had cuffs on. He wasn't fighting. He was subdued and no longer a threat (4 officers on the scene) yet Chauvin took it upon himself to murder him.

 

[okeefe4prez]

That's ridiculous. He had cuffs on. He wasn't fighting. He was subdued and no longer a threat (4 officers on the scene) yet Chauvin took it upon himself to murder him.

I think part of what gets lost is that the police deemed him a threat to himself because he appeared to be severely under the influence of drugs and asked to be put on the ground. The police generally have no duty to anyone. Say you call 911 for a robbery in progress, the cops wait 3 hours to come. You sue the cops because the robbers held you hostage, pistol whipped you, etc. for 2 hours. Case dismissed. Cops have no duty. There's a Supreme Court case on it.

However, the cops do have a duty if you are in custody. So if the cops leave a guy having an overdose in the back of a car and he flails around and injures himself, he can sue the cops for not protecting him from himself. That's why they had that hold in the first instance. If the cops just put a guy like that on the ground and he convulses and hits his head on the ground, the cops are going to get sued. It didn't just come from a vacuum.

Ultimately, policing is a lot like making ladders or portable gas cans. You go buy a ladder or gas can today from Home Depot and it is designed more by multi million dollar jury verdicts than it is by the engineers in the lab.

 

[PCHawk]

First, there is a police mentality that needs changed. Narcissistic personalities (which is plausible can justify themselves. My guess is that she has some level of ptsd that clouded her decision. That decision could have been very wide ranging. The looks on the other officers is interesting (not sure what it means though. The whole thing is tragic, but it happens too often to be a randem.

So you're saying you believe she decided she wanted to kill him and used the "taser taser" and the act of surprise after as a cover up? As far as your last sentence goes, I think anyone who says that has a hard time comprehending the huge number our population is. When you factor that in, it doesn't happen "too often to be random". It does happen too often to not be addressed tho.

 

[PCHawk]

I think part of what gets lost is that the police deemed him a threat to himself because he appeared to be severely under the influence of drugs and asked to be put on the ground. The police generally have no duty to anyone. Say you call 911 for a robbery in progress, the cops wait 3 hours to come. You sue the cops because the robbers held you hostage, pistol whipped you, etc. for 2 hours. Case dismissed. Cops have no duty. There's a Supreme Court case on it.

However, the cops do have a duty if you are in custody. So if the cops leave a guy having an overdose in the back of a car and he flails around and injures himself, he can sue the cops for not protecting him from himself. That's why they had that hold in the first instance. If the cops just put a guy like that on the ground and he convulses and hits his head on the ground, the cops are going to get sued. It didn't just come from a vacuum.

Ultimately, policing is a lot like making ladders or portable gas cans. You go buy a ladder or gas can today from Home Depot and it is designed more by multi million dollar jury verdicts than it is by the engineers in the lab.

The video actually shows the cops conversing about the danger he was to himself (bringing up a condition I forget the name of where people F themselves up when suffering from it) and Chauvin said "yep, that's why I'm keeping him here". Or something along those lines.

 

[PCHawk]

Yes, I did see that. That cop was nuts. Did you see the later version that where the cop was lecturing him while making excuses just before being uncuffed? The Army officer was in a predicament as he was ordered to keep his hands out the window and yet unbuckle his belt at the same time.

There is a new video out of a mom defending her son from a female cop.

It's not just cops on blacks. Had my own ordeal with an Iowa County Sheriff a couple of years ago. The local police actually gave me an apology. The Sheriff was a jerk. I had done nothing wrong (I had legally challenged a local republican representative. He recorded the conversation and wouldn't release it and was trying to intimidate me. I filed a complaint with the Iowa Human Rights Commission and he instantly gave me the recording. The commission gave me the letter permission to sue, but I already had what I wanted so I didn't.

What is needed is for a state/federal system of oversight of local police departments, but most states don't do that. The worst groups that actually receive little attention are the private railroad police. That I only know due to my work with farmers and farm owners.

I haven't seen that yet. I've also been a victim of a cop on a power trip. It would be extremely naive to say therr are no cops out there that are racist, but cops being assholes because a suspect is black is probably a tiny percentage compared to cops being assholes because they are assholes.

 

[PCHawk]

That's ridiculous. He had cuffs on. He wasn't fighting. He was subdued and no longer a threat (4 officers on the scene) yet Chauvin took it upon himself to murder him.

I completely agree that since he was cuffed behind his back he was bo longer a threat to himself. There are just so many different factors in play (like the one O'Keefe said) that it makes it way less black and white than you would think after watching the video.

I just really think everyone would be better off if everyone understood if you resist arrest you greatly increase your chance of dying and if you're a cop and you questionably kill someone who was resisting, you forfiet your right to be a cop or go to jail if it's really bad.