Zeller so overated

[sportstalent]

For a freshman to go up against a guy like Zellar and play like he did was great to see. I know one of the plays you're talking about Zellar just got low along the baseline and Woody was a hair late. Still played one heck of a game against one of the most talked about players in the country. A few mistakes are going to happen to anybody, he showed us something in that game.

If anything Adam showed the fans how competitive he is. He is going to have issues with smaller guys, but the real Centers of the B1G are not going to have their way with him. Woodbury played physical and should not have fouled out. The two fouls he shouldn't have gotten, the screen, which he will get better on, it was a foul and the 4th foul where his team left him hung out to dry on the back of the press.

He will learn from this game, you can't give Zeller baseline, or he will take it all day and foul people out.

 

[RocknRollface]

Btc doesn't think he is one of the best players, just a good player.

I will say it over and over again, if I had a player like that he would post up every play and the offense would run through him every possession, like UNC did with Hansbrough. That is not what Indiana does, they play the dribble drive game and let the big men roam and find open space and rebound. Crean has done it his whole coaching career.

Just because Crean doesn't showcase everything he does, it is more remarkable the stats that he puts up because big men with Crean just aren't ever the No. 1 option.

Zeller is an All-American and will be talked about as POY, keep in mind Oladipo thrives against players that he can beat because of his athleticism. Wait to reserve your opinions on who is really the best player on that team until the end of the year. The most important player on that team is Ferrell as he provides a totally different dimension that Indiana was missing all of last season, he is the PG that fits everything Crean tries to do.

I tend to look at the other side of the equation which is that good guards who can penetrate and pass can make life easy for big men.

As for Olidipo, couldn't the same be said for most great guards? Oladipo is one of the most athletic guys in the country so I think you could just say he thrives, period.

 

[sportstalent]

I tend to look at the other side of the equations which is that good guards who can penetrate and pass can make life easy for big men.

I tend to compare Crean's career at Marquette and compare it to Indiana. I think now he has the same type of guards at Indiana that he did at Marquette, minus Dwayne Wade, but that is another story.

Crean has never had a guy like Zeller and look at the difference in his success as Crean's philosophies have not changed since he went to Indiana. To beat Indiana, teams have to find a way to take Zeller out of the game, it is a big reason why Oladipo is having such a good year.

Ferrell makes a huge difference as he drives and kicks seemingly at will, as we go further in the B1G we'll see if he can continue that.

As far as your assessment, it isn't wrong, but you can't ignore a guy that puts up the numbers that Zeller does without being a focal point. He is one of the very best players in the country.

 

[Tmoney12]

If anything Adam showed the fans how competitive he is. He is going to have issues with smaller guys, but the real Centers of the B1G are not going to have their way with him. Woodbury played physical and should not have fouled out. The two fouls he shouldn't have gotten, the screen, which he will get better on, it was a foul and the 4th foul where his team left him hung out to dry on the back of the press.

He will learn from this game, you can't give Zeller baseline, or he will take it all day and foul people out.

I was proud of Adam when he made the foul where he was left to dry. He was willing to sacrifice for his team. The dude hustles. He is better than I thought he would be this year. He has a great upside

 

[sportstalent]

As for Olidipo, couldn't the same be said for most great guards? Oladipo is one of the most athletic guys in the country so I think you could just say he thrives, period.

He didn't magically get athletic over the course of one offseason, why is the playing this way this year? Maybe because people are trying to take Zeller away instead of rotating on the dribble drive?

That is the blueprint to beat Indiana, do all you can to stop Zeller even though he is going to still get numbers in some capacity. Be physical against him, run a lot of people at him and do not let him roam in space. Teams that try and take the dribble drive away high in the lane will fail (see: Iowa/Indiana first game last year).

If Oladipo keeps it up over the conference season I will be impressed, better competition will determine how he does and at the end of the season we'll see. Keep in mind Oladipo was really the only guy that could drive when he wanted too and kick last year, not so much anymore.

 

[RocknRollface]

He didn't magically get athletic over the course of one offseason, why is the playing this way this year? Maybe because people are trying to take Zeller away instead of rotating on the dribble drive?

That is the blueprint to beat Indiana, do all you can to stop Zeller even though he is going to still get numbers in some capacity. Be physical against him, run a lot of people at him and do not let him roam in space. Teams that try and take the dribble drive away high in the lane will fail (see: Iowa/Indiana first game last year).

If Oladipo keeps it up over the conference season I will be impressed, better competition will determine how he does and at the end of the season we'll see. Keep in mind Oladipo was really the only guy that could drive when he wanted too and kick last year, not so much anymore.

He was playing very well the end of last year too. He looked better than any of Kentucks guards when they played in the tourney.

Players get better with age usually You could ask why is Marble playing better than he did the last two years, why did Gatens become a much better player as a senior ect?

Olidipos improvement is because he has improved his ball handling and shooting.

Zeller and Ferrel positively affect his game too, certainly not denying that. The more good players on a team the harder it is to stop everyone.

 

[Foval21]

So being so dominant that doing only one thing and teams not being able to stop it makes you overrated.

I stipulate lebron is not my favorite player (in fact I don't like him)...but he must be overrated because no one can stop him from going to the basket yet that is basically all he does. Michael jordan at the beginning of his career has similar as he developed an outside shot later in his career.

 

[sportstalent]

He was playing very well the end of last year too. He looked better than any of Kentucks guards when they played in the tourney.

Players get better with age usually You could ask why is Marble playing better than he did the last two years, why did Gatens become a much better player as a senior ect?

Olidipos improvement is because he has improved his ball handling and shooting.

Zeller and Ferrel positively affect his game too, certainly not denying that. The more good players on a team the harder it is to stop everyone.

Ok, you are talking about a player that was known for athleticism and defense; not really a threat offensively. He made the leap to a talk of being conference POY, that is not something that happens overnight, again we will see at the end of the season.

You cite two Iowa players in player improvement, but neither have made a transition like Oladipo, not sure it is just because he is a year older. Oladipo is a good player, no doubt, but Zeller impacts the game more. Teams do not want Zeller beating them, period. Oladipo is the main beneficiary, but I will reserve judgement until he plays more games in conference.

Also, better than Kentucky's guards...yeah, ok...maybe for a game, but really.

Serious question: How many Indiana games have you watched with Zeller?

 

[Bigtenchamp]

So being so dominant that doing only one thing and teams not being able to stop it makes you overrated.

I stipulate lebron is not my favorite player (in fact I don't like him)...but he must be overrated because no one can stop him from going to the basket yet that is basically all he does. Michael jordan at the beginning of his career has similar as he developed an outside shot later in his career.

The comparisons you make here are rather odd.

 

[Foval21]

The comparisons you make here are rather odd.

No...what you don't understand is truly great players typically start with one aspect of their game that is so dominant teams can't stop it and that seems to be all the player does. Then as they age they develop other aspects because they can't rely on that one thing as much. Mj was the greatest slasher ever and no one could stop him. His outside shot and post up games came later. Zeller has 1 thing that others can't stop it will get him in the league just like kyle korver's 3 pt shot. From there it will be up to him to develop more so he becomes even better. So if devyn marble could take it to the rim on every player that guards him you would call him overrated if he couldn't make a 3 ptr?

 

[Bigtenchamp]

No...what you don't understand is truly great players typically start with one aspect of their game that is so dominant teams can't stop it and that seems to be all the player does. Then as they age they develop other aspects because they can't rely on that one thing as much. Mj was the greatest slasher ever and no one could stop him. His outside shot and post up games came later. Zeller has 1 thing that others can't stop it will get him in the league just like kyle korver's 3 pt shot. From there it will be up to him to develop more so he becomes even better. So if devyn marble could take it to the rim on every player that guards him you would call him overrated if he couldn't make a 3 ptr?

yeah but you compared two quick slashing guard/forwards with a 7 ft center

two guards that with or without a jump shot could create their own shot at any time

Zeller rarely creates his own shot regardless

 

[tm3308]

yeah but you compared two quick slashing guard/forwards with a 7 ft center

two guards that with or without a jump shot could create their own shot at any time

Zeller rarely creates his own shot regardless

Because he doesn't have to. You completely missed the point.

 

[Bigtenchamp]

Because he doesn't have to. You completely missed the point.

nope

 

[Knight78]

Ghost: you're going to have to work harder than that; a lot of his damage came against Gabe and McCabe.
Obviously, Woody didn't "handle him", but he represented himself well against an All-America.
Dackich said as much when Woody was reinserted with 3 minutes left.

Yeah, he DID do a lot of his damage against Gabe and McCabe.... because he put Woody in foul trouble and Woody sat a lot due to that foul trouble. That is a sign of a very good player - one who can put his matchup in foul trouble without getting into foul trouble himself while exceeding his point AND rebound averages for the season.

Yeah, Woody did an OK job while he was in there but it was very apparent he needs time in the weight room to work on strength. He was off balance a lot, which is why his baby hook was off. That's due to being pushed around. Woody will do much better after a couple of years of weight training.

 

[PCHawk]

Yeah, he DID do a lot of his damage against Gabe and McCabe.... because he put Woody in foul trouble and Woody sat a lot due to that foul trouble. That is a sign of a very good player - one who can put his matchup in foul trouble without getting into foul trouble himself while exceeding his point AND rebound averages for the season.

Yeah, Woody did an OK job while he was in there but it was very apparent he needs time in the weight room to work on strength. He was off balance a lot, which is why his baby hook was off. That's due to being pushed around. Woody will do much better after a couple of years of weight training.

Zeller really didn't do much to get Woody in foul trouble. He played the entire 1st half without fouling him. In fact it was Zeller on the pine with fouls in the 1st. In the 2nd half the refs bailed Zeller out when woody played great D on him and forced him to fade away from the basket and fall down. Also his 5th foul was on purpose to stop the clock at the end.

 

[Foval21]

yeah but you compared two quick slashing guard/forwards with a 7 ft center

two guards that with or without a jump shot could create their own shot at any time

Zeller rarely creates his own shot regardless

They are similar cases in that they are dominant at one aspect...it isn't about position or size it is about the context.

I can use dwight howard or blake griffin (wait better not use him he is a 6'10 pf that isn't comparable). Look at the point and next time you can understand instead of sounding like herby.

 

[ICHAWK]

yeah but you compared two quick slashing guard/forwards with a 7 ft center

two guards that with or without a jump shot could create their own shot at any time

Zeller rarely creates his own shot regardless

I guess I don't follow the media much but you claim Zeller is really hyped all over the place. I think he is a good player. I have no idea how much he is being hyped.

Who is the best player in the country in your opinion? Who is your POY candidate?

 

[Bigtenchamp]

They are similar cases in that they are dominant at one aspect...it isn't about position or size it is about the context.

I can use dwight howard or blake griffin (wait better not use him he is a 6'10 pf that isn't comparable). Look at the point and next time you can understand instead of sounding like herby.

So if I dominate my ping pong league then me and Jordan are pretty much the same.

I mean he is 6'6 and I'm 5'10"....

Just because one person dominates "one thing" doesn't make it a good comparison.

I got the point from the beginning but that doesn't mean it wasn't still an ill conceived comparison.

 

[Foval21]

So if I dominate my ping pong league then me and Jordan are pretty much the same.

I mean he is 6'6 and I'm 5'10"....

Just because one person dominates "one thing" doesn't make it a good comparison.

I got the point from the beginning but that doesn't mean it wasn't still an ill conceived comparison.

size doesn't matter...since you brought up ping pong I will use tennis to show you what I mean...please read slowly so it sinks in.

It is like someone calling a tennis player overrated because they win and dominate by continually using a forehand. So saying because they aren't using their backhand or drop shot or other shots enough that they aren't really as good as their record or dominance shows. They are putting themselves in the best position to excel at the highest level. That is actually a very good definition of great. They continually put themselves in position to use the forehand so they can use their strength and not have to show their weakness...that is called being smart.

Do you really think no coach has ever said we are going to make cody zeller beat us with his jumper...most say it then they back off him and he still gets a dunk because he is that good. He got like 19 pts and 8 rebs in the game...pretty sure that is solid play. And that isn't against last yrs weak defense and short front line. That was against this yrs improved defense and much taller front court.

 

[tm3308]

So if I dominate my ping pong league then me and Jordan are pretty much the same.

I mean he is 6'6 and I'm 5'10"....

Just because one person dominates "one thing" doesn't make it a good comparison.

I got the point from the beginning but that doesn't mean it wasn't still an ill conceived comparison.

JFC. Herby redux.

If a guy is dominant in one area of his game, he can rely solely on that to have success at the college level. For Zeller, it's the free-roaming and using his athleticism to his advantage. For Jordan, it was slashing...until he lost a step and leaned more on his jump shot. It's a valid comparison when you're talking about how the college game works, and not about who is the better player.

It's not that Zeller CAN'T post up. He just doesn't have to in order to be successful, and there's no reason to do otherwise in Crean's system. But don't confuse inability and lack of necessity just because you can't grasp the concept of not having a good post up center post up all the time.