Theo Epstein to Cubs?

tm3308 said:
Why? I mean he's made some good FA/trade moves (A-Rod, Teixeira, Granderson, Sabathia), but most of the guys who came through the farm system who stuck were not on his watch. Jeter and Rivera were already there. The best (and really only) piece from the farm system currently getting time is Gardner. He kept Joba and let Ian Kennedy walk (that move has turned out great, hasn't it?).

He's a big spender. We need someone who can build from the ground up, and I don't think that Cashman is that guy.
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The Yankees have what is widely considered the best farm system in all of baseball right now. The reason they've been able to make a lot of the moves they've made lately is because they know they can ship prospects around and still have a great farm system. Gardner is solid but the Yankees have also developed playoff roster guys Robinson Cano, Jesus Montero, Boone Logan, Phil Hughes, Ivan Nova, and Eduardo Nunez under Cashman's watch.

Edit: "widely considered the best" is probably an exaggeration. I think widely considered to be top-5 is probably more accurate. Though I've seen NYY ranked as high as #1 on a couple of lists, Kansas City and Tampa Bay are usually #1 and #2.
 
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thejumper5 said:
The Yankees have what is widely considered the best farm system in all of baseball right now. The reason they've been able to make a lot of the moves they've made lately is because they know they can ship prospects around and still have a great farm system. Gardner is solid but the Yankees have also developed playoff roster guys Robinson Cano, Jesus Montero, Boone Logan, Phil Hughes, Ivan Nova, and Eduardo Nunez under Cashman's watch.

Edit: "widely considered the best" is probably an exaggeration. I think widely considered to be top-5 is probably more accurate. Though I've seen NYY ranked as high as #1 on a couple of lists, Kansas City and Tampa Bay are usually #1 and #2.
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You fixed it in your edit, but no the Yankees aren't considered by most as having the best farm system.

Also, you make it sound like Cashman has no input on whether he joins the Cubs or not. I'm sure they'll reach out to his agent to see what his interest is, but I've heard nothing that would suggest he wants to leave NY.
 
Are guys like Epstein and Cashman good, or do they have unlimited bankroll companies that let them look better than who they are?
 
JonDMiller said:
Are guys like Epstein and Cashman good, or do they have unlimited bankroll companies that let them look better than who they are?
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when was the last time cashman's team won a ring, or epstein's team won a ring, prior to their joining their teams? it's not like the sox were winning championships every year. their last one was when - 1918 - prior to epstein?

can't you say the same thing about any team? like, how in the hell can ucla football be so bad right now, given their location. or why in the hell did NYY do so poorly between '79 and '95. Steinbrenner was still throwin' round the cash, i'm sure. or, why in the hell is ISU so terrible.....wait a minute.......
 
thejumper5 said:
The Yankees have what is widely considered the best farm system in all of baseball right now. The reason they've been able to make a lot of the moves they've made lately is because they know they can ship prospects around and still have a great farm system. Gardner is solid but the Yankees have also developed playoff roster guys Robinson Cano, Jesus Montero, Boone Logan, Phil Hughes, Ivan Nova, and Eduardo Nunez under Cashman's watch.

Edit: "widely considered the best" is probably an exaggeration. I think widely considered to be top-5 is probably more accurate. Though I've seen NYY ranked as high as #1 on a couple of lists, Kansas City and Tampa Bay are usually #1 and #2.
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I forgot about Cano and Hughes. But the bolded is why I prefer Friedman to all other candidates. And Cashman likely isn't going anywhere anyway. But most of the key pieces to the Yankees teams during Cashman's tenure have been superstars that they went out and got. Clemens, Sabathia, Teixeira, A-Rod, etc.

I don't want a farm system that only serves to buy superstars. The Red Sox and Rays better follow(ed) the model that I'd prefer to Cubs adopt: develop the backbone of the team yourself, then go in FA/trades to get the final pieces.

imported_ankle23 said:
when was the last time cashman's team won a ring, or epstein's team won a ring, prior to their joining their teams? it's not like the sox were winning championships every year. their last one was when - 1918 - prior to epstein?

can't you say the same thing about any team? like, how in the hell can ucla football be so bad right now, given their location. or why in the hell did NYY do so poorly between '79 and '95. Steinbrenner was still throwin' round the cash, i'm sure. or, why in the hell is ISU so terrible.....wait a minute.......
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Cashman has had pretty solid success with his big-money signings. The Yankees have always been big spenders, but not always wise spenders. But that doesn't mean that the farm system has produced the core of the team under his watch. Cano, Hughes, and Gardner are the guys getting significant time, and Cano is the only one who you could argue is their top player. Cashman inherited Jeter and Rivera.

I want to start from the ground up. That's the best way to maintain success.
 
Clark said:
You fixed it in your edit, but no the Yankees aren't considered by most as having the best farm system.

Also, you make it sound like Cashman has no input on whether he joins the Cubs or not. I'm sure they'll reach out to his agent to see what his interest is, but I've heard nothing that would suggest he wants to leave NY.
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I think you're reading into what I'm saying a little too much. Obviously Cashman has final say on where he goes after this year, and frankly it would be quite surprising if he left New York after being with the organization for over 20 years; however, stranger things have happened and with his contract being up in New York, if he doesn't like the terms he's offered, I expect him to look elsewhere.

(Now THAT is a run-on sentence).
 
tm3308 said:
I don't want a farm system that only serves to buy superstars. The Red Sox and Rays better follow(ed) the model that I'd prefer to Cubs adopt: develop the backbone of the team yourself, then go in FA/trades to get the final pieces.

Cashman has had pretty solid success with his big-money signings. The Yankees have always been big spenders, but not always wise spenders. But that doesn't mean that the farm system has produced the core of the team under his watch. Cano, Hughes, and Gardner are the guys getting significant time, and Cano is the only one who you could argue is their top player. Cashman inherited Jeter and Rivera.

I want to start from the ground up. That's the best way to maintain success.
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While I understand a lot of what you are saying and would be thrilled to get Friedman, I disagree with your assessment that Cashman "inherited" Jeter and Rivera because you make no note of the fact that Cashman was a part of the Yankees organization for ten years before becoming GM and you make no mention of who Friedman inherited when he took over as GM in 2005. He inherited a lot of the talent that has turned the Rays into a playoff regular (Upton, Neimann, Shields, Jaso, even Hellickson was drafted before Friedman was the man in charge). Of players on the playoff rosters for each team Tampa Bay only had two more players than New York that originated in their respective organizations. Tampa Bay had more than any other playoff team, but New York was tied with the Phillies and Cardinals and ahead of Texas, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Arizona.

I think that you (but not just you, lots and lots of folks) might be prematurely discounting how successful the Yankees are (and have been) at developing minor league talent. It isn't that the Yankees buy more free agents than other teams, its that the Yankees have more money with which to buy those free agents.

Edit--Here's a link to a graphic that includes a visual analysis of playoff rosters by acquisition type. I think you'll find it surprising how much talent the Yankees have developed for themselves. After clicking the link, it may be small, but you should be able to zoom in on the important parts. http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1003/grant_playoffimage_flipflopflyball_1000.jpg
 
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I have complete faith in the Ricketts family. I believe they will spend the money correctly. I would look for the Cubs to find a way to bring in Prince Fielder. Adding him would be a big piece of the puzzle. Barney and Castro are going to be very good players. Soto isn't terrible behind the plate. Marlon Byrd is steady. Let Ramirez walk and try to find another 3rd baseman that plays hard. BTW, I would take Epstein in a second.
 
thejumper5 said:
While I understand a lot of what you are saying and would be thrilled to get Friedman, I disagree with your assessment that Cashman "inherited" Jeter and Rivera because you make no note of the fact that Cashman was a part of the Yankees organization for ten years before becoming GM and you make no mention of who Friedman inherited when he took over as GM in 2005. He inherited a lot of the talent that has turned the Rays into a playoff regular (Upton, Neimann, Shields, Jaso, even Hellickson was drafted before Friedman was the man in charge). Of players on the playoff rosters for each team Tampa Bay only had two more players than New York that originated in their respective organizations. Tampa Bay had more than any other playoff team, but New York was tied with the Phillies and Cardinals and ahead of Texas, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Arizona.

I think that you (but not just you, lots and lots of folks) might be prematurely discounting how successful the Yankees are (and have been) at developing minor league talent. It isn't that the Yankees buy more free agents than other teams, its that the Yankees have more money with which to buy those free agents.

Edit--Here's a link to a graphic that includes a visual analysis of playoff rosters by acquisition type. I think you'll find it surprising how much talent the Yankees have developed for themselves. After clicking the link, it may be small, but you should be able to zoom in on the important parts. http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1003/grant_playoffimage_flipflopflyball_1000.jpg
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That actually is very surprising. Regardless, I don't think Cashman is going anywhere.
 
Doyel article on Epstein sums up my previously stated thoughts.

Epstein isn't a genius GM, just a lucky one - MLB - CBSSports.com

"General manager of the Red Sox in this era of Major League Baseball? That's one of the luckiest jobs in sports. Certainly you have to be smart to get that job, and as I've conceded, Theo Epstein -- Yale grad, Juris Doctor -- is a smart guy. But to win as the general manager of the Red Sox? You don't have to be smart to do that. You have to be breathing to do that...Two World Series in nine years in Boston? Not impressing me, Mr. Epstein. To borrow the best line from Dangerous Liaisons: One does not applaud the tenor for clearing his throat."
 
JonDMiller said:
Doyel article on Epstein sums up my previously stated thoughts.

Epstein isn't a genius GM, just a lucky one - MLB - CBSSports.com

"General manager of the Red Sox in this era of Major League Baseball? That's one of the luckiest jobs in sports. Certainly you have to be smart to get that job, and as I've conceded, Theo Epstein -- Yale grad, Juris Doctor -- is a smart guy. But to win as the general manager of the Red Sox? You don't have to be smart to do that. You have to be breathing to do that...Two World Series in nine years in Boston? Not impressing me, Mr. Epstein. To borrow the best line from Dangerous Liaisons: One does not applaud the tenor for clearing his throat."
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So the previous 86 years of never winning a World Series just didn't happen? The Red Sox had a fair amount of culture to overcome on the way to winning those two World Series titles, especially after the way they lost the ALCS in 2003.

If all you have to do is be breathing to win in Boston, you are left with two choices: 1. Completely discount almost the entire history of the franchise; or 2. You have to admit that Epstein is arguably the best GM in Red Sox history.
 
tm3308 said:
So the previous 86 years of never winning a World Series just didn't happen? The Red Sox had a fair amount of culture to overcome on the way to winning those two World Series titles, especially after the way they lost the ALCS in 2003.

If all you have to do is be breathing to win in Boston, you are left with two choices: 1. Completely discount almost the entire history of the franchise; or 2. You have to admit that Epstein is arguably the best GM in Red Sox history.
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That was written by Doyel, what did you expect, insight, knowledge, common sense? That was your first mistake. If it is easy to win in Boston, why not in Chicago? Does it just take money, NO. I think many teams have made that obvious. I personally have Epstein as my third choice, but I still think he's a dang good GM.
 
hawkfarmer said:
That was written by Doyel, what did you expect, insight, knowledge, common sense? That was your first mistake. If it is easy to win in Boston, why not in Chicago? Does it just take money, NO. I think many teams have made that obvious. I personally have Epstein as my third choice, but I still think he's a dang good GM.
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Agreed on all points, though in this instance I'm debating more with Jon. Much higher chance of solid debate.

And I also have Epstein as my #3, behind Friedman and Beane (who doesn't seem likely to go anywhere).
 
tm3308 said:
Agreed on all points, though in this instance I'm debating more with Jon. Much higher chance of solid debate.

And I also have Epstein as my #3, behind Friedman and Beane (who doesn't seem likely to go anywhere).
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We have the same order there. I agree with your arguments. I just don't think a lot of people understand the culture of baseball and that it isn't the amount of money you have but how you spend it and it takes a good GM to see potential in young players and the recourse of a poor farm system.

I will give you an example, the Braves traded 2 players for Mark Texieria for half a season, no big deal right.

Those 2 prospects are Elvis Andrus and Perez(I think, their closer)- 2 studs for the Rangers now. Was it worth it? I don't think so. It takes a good GM to know the right moves and how to spend the money
 
hawkfarmer said:
We have the same order there. I agree with your arguments. I just don't think a lot of people understand the culture of baseball and that it isn't the amount of money you have but how you spend it and it takes a good GM to see potential in young players and the recourse of a poor farm system.

I will give you an example, the Braves traded 2 players for Mark Texieria for half a season, no big deal right.

Those 2 prospects are Elvis Andrus and Perez(I think, their closer)- 2 studs for the Rangers now. Was it worth it? I don't think so. It takes a good GM to know the right moves and how to spend the money
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The Rangers also got Matt Harrison who was one of their starters most of the year in the Tex trade.

Don't forget Jarrod Saltalamacchia was also part of that trade! He is not probably the starting catcher for Boston (Rangers got 2 prospects for him). Atlanta gave up a lot in that trade. And the Rangers made out like bandits.
 
The conversation between the Red Sox and the Cubs seem to be heating up.

So what are you willing to give up to get Epstein? Castro?
 
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