Stop telling people how to feel

[deanvogs]

Oh, and I've either visited or worked with nearly 40 large public universities and have never heard of or seen so called safe spaces. Not to say they don't exist, but I think this is largely an over blown thing that idiots tout so they can disparage young folks and discredit our higher education system. Snowflakes that whine about there being safe spaces know that educated folks tend to not vote the way that they do.

Looking to get an honest feedback for someone who works for large public universities. So let me get your take on this.

As a guy who could basically pay for his own school when he went to college by working in the summer and during the school year, what do you think about the massive amount of debt kids are coming out of college with? It is no longer affordable for kids to actually earn enough to pay for their own education and they have to take out loans to get it done.

Also it seems to me that even when I graduated 25 years ago that degree just didn't mean all that much and now seems to mean even less. By that I mean everyone has a degree, and the only thing a degree really gets you now is a entry level mail room job. I totally acknowledge that isn't the case with some degrees, but your basic Bachelor's just doesn't mean a whole lot now.

Now, I know this is kind of the more negative type slant on those things, and I'm not meaning to start a pissing match actually. Maybe give me the positive spin on a degree for kids today. I just feel like the college experience has gotten too expensive and doesn't open the doors it used to for many.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Looking to get an honest feedback for someone who works for large public universities. So let me get your take on this.

As a guy who could basically pay for his own school when he went to college by working in the summer and during the school year, what do you think about the massive amount of debt kids are coming out of college with? It is no longer affordable for kids to actually earn enough to pay for their own education and they have to take out loans to get it done.

Also it seems to me that even when I graduated 25 years ago that degree just didn't mean all that much and now seems to mean even less. By that I mean everyone has a degree, and the only thing a degree really gets you now is a entry level mail room job. I totally acknowledge that isn't the case with some degrees, but your basic Bachelor's just doesn't mean a whole lot now.

Now, I know this is kind of the more negative type slant on those things, and I'm not meaning to start a pissing match actually. Maybe give me the positive spin on a degree for kids today. I just feel like the college experience has gotten too expensive and doesn't open the doors it used to for many.

I agree. It seems a bit watered down. Is it worth the price? Now many can come out of high school sometimes a sophmore or with many college credits. That helps. Also, many start the first two years at a junior college.

I think it used to really mean something many years ago. Then, after that became a nice expensive mention on one's resume. Now, seems to be quite watered down. More expensive and more watered down at the same time.

As you mentioned, much depends on the actual kind of degree. Many are specific training which really helps. The generic degrees, well one has to wonder.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Looking to get an honest feedback for someone who works for large public universities. So let me get your take on this.

As a guy who could basically pay for his own school when he went to college by working in the summer and during the school year, what do you think about the massive amount of debt kids are coming out of college with? It is no longer affordable for kids to actually earn enough to pay for their own education and they have to take out loans to get it done.

Also it seems to me that even when I graduated 25 years ago that degree just didn't mean all that much and now seems to mean even less. By that I mean everyone has a degree, and the only thing a degree really gets you now is a entry level mail room job. I totally acknowledge that isn't the case with some degrees, but your basic Bachelor's just doesn't mean a whole lot now.

Now, I know this is kind of the more negative type slant on those things, and I'm not meaning to start a pissing match actually. Maybe give me the positive spin on a degree for kids today. I just feel like the college experience has gotten too expensive and doesn't open the doors it used to for many.

My daughter graduated from college in 2011. She got money BACK when she left. We did prepaid tuition and she had Bright Futures scholarships from the State of Florida. She worked internships in her field while in college.

She has had two Jeeps that she paid for herself. When she moved to Seattle recently, she did the math, etc., and came to the conclusion she should sell her Jeep Cherokee. In short, she is level-headed and responsible.

Her degree was in Event Management from UCFs Rosen School of Hospitality. She uses her degree, and has parlayed it into a good, up-and-coming career. The degree gets you in the door. It shows commitment. But, when it comes with 20, 30 or even 100 thousand dollars of debt? Not sure how that even happens, yet I know a doctor roughly my age who is STILL paying off student debt!

 

[HawkGold]

Looking to get an honest feedback for someone who works for large public universities. So let me get your take on this.

As a guy who could basically pay for his own school when he went to college by working in the summer and during the school year, what do you think about the massive amount of debt kids are coming out of college with? It is no longer affordable for kids to actually earn enough to pay for their own education and they have to take out loans to get it done.

Also it seems to me that even when I graduated 25 years ago that degree just didn't mean all that much and now seems to mean even less. By that I mean everyone has a degree, and the only thing a degree really gets you now is a entry level mail room job. I totally acknowledge that isn't the case with some degrees, but your basic Bachelor's just doesn't mean a whole lot now.

Now, I know this is kind of the more negative type slant on those things, and I'm not meaning to start a pissing match actually. Maybe give me the positive spin on a degree for kids today. I just feel like the college experience has gotten too expensive and doesn't open the doors it used to for many.

I basically agree. However, the Iowa state schools are VERY affordable compared to surrounding states. Our neighbors make it so that one can't earn enough to pay for it. Still only about 1 in 4 actually get a 4 year degree. The degree matters. One son who graduated from Iowa Law is doing quite well as he's Spanish fluent. My youngest in Mech Engineering at a top 5 engineering school just got his first job at a higher pay than most on here likely. The degree matters.

To summarize, it is a different economy. The degree does matter in this economy. Without a usable degree, people in this economy are going to have it tough. Graduate with debt without a usable degree and you are in serious trouble.

That said, cars last so much longer. You can travel the world cheaper both in buying power and actual $$ amount than one could in the previous era. Tech is so much cheaper.

However, those graduating in the early mid 80s arguably had it as bad or even harder. The early 90s were that rosy either. People forget what happened during that time. The 70s were saved when women started working more (caveat that it did depress male salaries) The 80s gained by military buildup. In the late 90s, business efficiency took on a whole new level with technology.

Now were are being replaced by robots and cheap labor.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

I basically agree. However, the Iowa state schools are VERY affordable compared to surrounding states. Our neighbors make it so that one can't earn enough to pay for it. Still only about 1 in 4 actually get a 4 year degree. The degree matters. One son who graduated from Iowa Law is doing quite well as he's Spanish fluent. My youngest in Mech Engineering at a top 5 engineering school just got his first job at a higher pay than most on here likely. The degree matters.

To summarize, it is a different economy. The degree does matter in this economy. Without a usable degree, people in this economy are going to have it tough. Graduate with debt without a usable degree and you are in serious trouble.

That said, cars last so much longer. You can travel the world cheaper both in buying power and actual $$ amount than one could in the previous era. Tech is so much cheaper.

However, those graduating in the early mid 80s arguably had it as bad or even harder. The early 90s were that rosy either. People forget what happened during that time. The 70s were saved when women started working more (caveat that it did depress male salaries) The 80s gained by military buildup. In the late 90s, business efficiency took on a whole new level with technology.

Now were are being replaced by robots and cheap labor.

I would add, depending on where you live, a car isn't even necessary, and that will only increase as we see driverless cars, car-sharing, etc.

 

[HawkGold]

I would add, depending on where you live, a car isn't even necessary, and that will only increase as we see driverless cars, car-sharing, etc.

That's for sure. My kids just don't really care about cars. One of them sort of does. My oldest just bought a house in the downtown of a not so nice Iowa city to be withing walking distance of work so he....doesn't have to drive. I never would think of doing that.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

That's for sure. My kids just don't really care about cars. One of them sort of does. My oldest just bought a house in the downtown of a not so nice Iowa city to be withing walking distance of work so he....doesn't have to drive. I never would think of doing that.

I would never think of it either, but if I lived in a city with good mass transit?

 

[1hawkeye1]

Not sure how this thread got here, but the reason college is so expensive is because of government getting involved. And government thinks the answer to that is to become more involved by handing out more grants and loans.

 

[HawkInATX]

Interesting points. I think the number of young people living at home is a product of an economy that does not give them many options. Home prices are way up and down payments are, as well. Apartments are running well over $1000 a month plus utilities for even a basic one bedroom. Wages have stagnated, according to numerous sources, for nearly 30 years. Health insurance costs have forced more people into debt, bankruptcy and lack of care than any time in history. I guess I am not surprised that more young people are living at home.

Safe places on campuses are a relatively new issue. I can see your point, but would also argue that the need for safe places is now necessary given the amount of violent confrontations between and among groups with various political views. We no longer engage in intelligent discourse, only zero sum games where only one view can be expressed, and that is the one you (not you) hold.

Because I hold onto the vast majority of my progressive (liberal, if you must) views, I have been labeled a "snowflake" due to those positions. If I could tell some of those accusers the real story behind my life, it would melt a lot of snowflakes.

Appreciate your responses!

This is something that way too many people overlook. If you look back at the history of the nuclear family (or even extended family) in the United States and globally, the "Greatest Generation" were the first generation to not come back home to live with family/parents. This was in large part due to the extensive use of the Montgomery GI Bill and the ready availability of low-cost tract housing that was popping up everywhere in the 1950s. The Baby Boomers continued this trend, as many of them ended up in Vietnam or were able piggy-back off of burgeoning middle class that were their parents. Costs of education were low, cost of living was low, cost of health care was low. You didn't come out of college with 5 figure debt (or more) and could pay your modest mortgage of 300-500 a month without much worry.

Now, every generation after the Baby Boomers is saddled with much higher costs of living and are reverting to the ways of the generations before the BB and GG and the BB and GG are complaining about it because they never had to, so why should these irresponsible kids. But if you look back prior to 1942, moving back in with your family to help minimize costs was THE NORM not the exception. This is also not exclusive to the United States. In many European and Asian nations, this is and has been the norm as well. It's really easy to criticize 20-35 year olds right now for being soft and needing mommy and daddy to help them, but most likely your grandparents did the exact same thing and nobody judged it nearly so harshly. The point is, maybe step out of your own experiences and take in some of the contextual factors before applying generalized statements about a broad and diverse group who just happens to be of a different generation.

 

[Joshbrown]

This is something that way too many people overlook. If you look back at the history of the nuclear family (or even extended family) in the United States and globally, the "Greatest Generation" were the first generation to not come back home to live with family/parents. This was in large part due to the extensive use of the Montgomery GI Bill and the ready availability of low-cost tract housing that was popping up everywhere in the 1950s. The Baby Boomers continued this trend, as many of them ended up in Vietnam or were able piggy-back off of burgeoning middle class that were their parents. Costs of education were low, cost of living was low, cost of health care was low. You didn't come out of college with 5 figure debt (or more) and could pay your modest mortgage of 300-500 a month without much worry.

Now, every generation after the Baby Boomers is saddled with much higher costs of living and are reverting to the ways of the generations before the BB and GG and the BB and GG are complaining about it because they never had to, so why should these irresponsible kids. But if you look back prior to 1942, moving back in with your family to help minimize costs was THE NORM not the exception. This is also not exclusive to the United States. In many European and Asian nations, this is and has been the norm as well. It's really easy to criticize 20-35 year olds right now for being soft and needing mommy and daddy to help them, but most likely your grandparents did the exact same thing and nobody judged it nearly so harshly. The point is, maybe step out of your own experiences and take in some of the contextual factors before applying generalized statements about a broad and diverse group who just happens to be of a different generation.

^^^^ This is the problem facing the USA. 50+ years of embracing excuses rather than stoicism.
Society went to hell once people switched from tobacco to marijuana, and stopped wearing hats: FACT

 

[HawkInATX]

^^^^ This is the problem facing the USA. 50+ years of embracing excuses rather than stoicism.
Society went to hell once people switched from tobacco to marijuana, and stopped wearing hats: FACT

And furthermore, STAY OFF HIS LAWN! Kids these days have no respect for their elders or their contributions. WE FOUGHT THE NAZIS, DAMMIT!!!

Can it. Refusing to look at causal factors when examining societal problems is the real problem. Just because it worked for you in a bygone era doesn't mean it works for everybody 50 years later. And if you really want to get super deep into your ridiculous use of stoicism: real stoicism would have required us to NOT enter WWI, NOT enter WWII, NOT go to Korea, NOT have the GI Bill (BTW, the single largest piece of social welfare every attempted at the time). Bite me.

 

[Joshbrown]

THE USA 1966

THE USA 2016

yep, no bad choices made by the citizenry

 

[OkstHawk]

I admit that I have not read much of the thread beyond Deans post/question. One of the reasons that tuition has increased considerably (at least from what I have heard from those I work with) is that the government has cut a considerable amount of funding which goes to education. Traditionally, public universities get federal funding and then get "revenue" from tuition. As the amount of federal funding goes away to pay for (fill in the blank with whatever ideological slant you want...welfare for the rich, welfare for the poor, etc.), universities raise tuition to provide operating revenue. Granted, probably too much money goes to administration and other projects which don't necessarily benefit students.

It is only my opinion that not every person should attend university. Unfortunately as much as we think that degrees are irrelevant, they are still a requirement to gain entry into certain professions and fields. We also must keep in mind that wages have far under paced the increase in price of many goods and services. Had wages kept pace with inflation since the 60s, we wouldn't be seeing the drastic increase in student debt levels (although since tuition has increased to make up for the loss in federal dollars, we would still see higher debt levels than in prior time periods).

 

[NCHawker]

somebody share a picture mapping how the subjects of this thread hopped from the OP to what we have now.

 

[westender]

When are we going to stop calling 19-22 year old young men, KIDS!!

That is what gets under my skin.

Because that is what they are. Once you get old you realize how little you knew when you were 19 and what you cared about then or thought was hugely important has little resemblance to what you care about now. As someone now a bit older I look at 19 year olds now and realize man I was wrong about a lot of stuff when I was 19 and how they just look like kids.

 

[westender]

I responded to a tweet today that got under my skin. It wasn't a unique statement, in fact it was probably more parroting a sentiment I hear from time to time rather than a unique thought by this individual. I won't directly quote it but it was something to the effect that "adults" are being too salty on twitter. Yes we are under performing but stop tying your self worth to kids.

I take exception to this sentiment. First of all, F you. I don't walk around telling you how to feel. I express my disdain with the state of Hawkeye sports. You're free not to. I don't follow you around telling you you're an idiot for being positive.

Second, the idea that people who are expressing dissatisfaction are tying their "self-worth" to a bunch of kids playing a game represents multiple logical fallacies. Its a classic straw man. It knocks down a (faulty) premise created by the individual making the argument. I never said "God, the Hawkeyes need to be better because they are bad and that is making my life bad." This person inferred that. Also its an attempt ad an ad hominim attack. "Well you're so wrapped in up in this, you must be a loser." As I responded, that is no different from me saying "Well you accept this mediocrity, you must be a low performer in life."

I don't expect people to adhere to "rules of debate and proper argument" on twitter, but this concept that people who are unhappy and unwilling to accept the current level of performance "are not real fans", "need to stop tying their self worth to kids playing a game", are "losers" needs to stop. As I said, it is no more valid than claiming that people who "will always be a fan no matter what" are mediocre losers in life.

Sorry sad clown. You have company here for sure.

 

[NCHawker]

dang, its that simple, we moved from tobacco to cannabis.

And that is what caused it all.

I sorta thought that weed was more in parallel with alcohol, more likely and adjunct.

I've never heard of dad coming home after being ot with his friends smoking and beating his wife and kids - of course if he smokes a lot he probably can't support a family in the first place.

Never mind men siring children with no intent to support them. Kids growing up in 1 parent households in poverty. The world does not need any more heroic single mothers.

......

I could go on.

And there have always been ills in society by the way - things were not perfect in the 1950's.

There are many things that have contributed to the NEW ills of society.

Don't think its just one thing.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Because that is what they are. Once you get old you realize how little you knew when you were 19 and what you cared about then or thought was hugely important has little resemblance to what you care about now. As someone now a bit older I look at 19 year olds now and realize man I was wrong about a lot of stuff when I was 19 and how they just look like kids.

I don't agree. Can't we view them as young adults that are still learning the ropes? I think most expect that at that age they aren't going to have everything figured out even though they may think so, but, it's the mindset of society. If you refer to them as kid's they may act as a kid when they are dealing with an adult situation.

Man, cut the cord at some point. I don't think it's OK to say I'm going to refer to them as kids until they are 28 or 30, because by then they should have their shit figured out. I don't think there is anything wrong with setting or providing expectations for this age group.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

I basically agree. However, the Iowa state schools are VERY affordable compared to surrounding states. Our neighbors make it so that one can't earn enough to pay for it. Still only about 1 in 4 actually get a 4 year degree. The degree matters. One son who graduated from Iowa Law is doing quite well as he's Spanish fluent. My youngest in Mech Engineering at a top 5 engineering school just got his first job at a higher pay than most on here likely. The degree matters.

To summarize, it is a different economy. The degree does matter in this economy. Without a usable degree, people in this economy are going to have it tough. Graduate with debt without a usable degree and you are in serious trouble.

That said, cars last so much longer. You can travel the world cheaper both in buying power and actual $$ amount than one could in the previous era. Tech is so much cheaper.

However, those graduating in the early mid 80s arguably had it as bad or even harder. The early 90s were that rosy either. People forget what happened during that time. The 70s were saved when women started working more (caveat that it did depress male salaries) The 80s gained by military buildup. In the late 90s, business efficiency took on a whole new level with technology.

Now were are being replaced by robots and cheap labor.

These are specific and focused degrees in a line or work that is required. I think many of us are referring to the history, sociology, general biology degrees that people pay $$$$ for that are pretty general.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

This is something that way too many people overlook. If you look back at the history of the nuclear family (or even extended family) in the United States and globally, the "Greatest Generation" were the first generation to not come back home to live with family/parents. This was in large part due to the extensive use of the Montgomery GI Bill and the ready availability of low-cost tract housing that was popping up everywhere in the 1950s. The Baby Boomers continued this trend, as many of them ended up in Vietnam or were able piggy-back off of burgeoning middle class that were their parents. Costs of education were low, cost of living was low, cost of health care was low. You didn't come out of college with 5 figure debt (or more) and could pay your modest mortgage of 300-500 a month without much worry.

Now, every generation after the Baby Boomers is saddled with much higher costs of living and are reverting to the ways of the generations before the BB and GG and the BB and GG are complaining about it because they never had to, so why should these irresponsible kids. But if you look back prior to 1942, moving back in with your family to help minimize costs was THE NORM not the exception. This is also not exclusive to the United States. In many European and Asian nations, this is and has been the norm as well. It's really easy to criticize 20-35 year olds right now for being soft and needing mommy and daddy to help them, but most likely your grandparents did the exact same thing and nobody judged it nearly so harshly. The point is, maybe step out of your own experiences and take in some of the contextual factors before applying generalized statements about a broad and diverse group who just happens to be of a different generation.

Good points and discussion by both of you.