Social Issue/Political Discussion Relating to Iowa Football
- Thread starter RobHowe
- Start date
ssckelley
Well-Known Member
Aw man, more and more smoke developing around KF. Part of me wants to say these are just unhappy people that want to burn the place down but the other part of me says there is too much smoke to not start believing some of this stuff on KF. It's starting to have a snowball effect as more and more are coming out. Although I will say in KF's defense that any head coach having a conversation with an athlete wanting to transfer cannot be all that comfortable.
What bothers me the most is he enabled Doyle, at some point in all the years they've been together KF has had to of known about Doyle's attitude towards black people. Then also hearing how his son's attitude has been towards some black players, leads me to believe these issues developed at a young age for Brian. This "the Iowa way" has to start from the top, this attitude doesn't start with Assistant coaches and even if it does the Head Coach could put a stop to it. I don't like to make comparisons as the results are night and day different but this was Paterno's downfall. He didn't commit the acts but he enabled it and looked the other way.
What bothers me the most is he enabled Doyle, at some point in all the years they've been together KF has had to of known about Doyle's attitude towards black people. Then also hearing how his son's attitude has been towards some black players, leads me to believe these issues developed at a young age for Brian. This "the Iowa way" has to start from the top, this attitude doesn't start with Assistant coaches and even if it does the Head Coach could put a stop to it. I don't like to make comparisons as the results are night and day different but this was Paterno's downfall. He didn't commit the acts but he enabled it and looked the other way.
Ouch... What Fleming has to say may do more then put a dent in KFs reputation... I mean wtf. I don't want to believe that KF would do that sort of thing to recruits.... But Fleming spells all that out in a very believable way. If kids are looking to leave as a coach I can see if you really want them to stay you give them an 'are you sure' kinda speech but beyond that you can't not let them go. If he's asking to be directed to whom he needs to be going to for it and you don't... I have a feeling many HCs play games like that I doubt this makes KF unique. But it's wrong to do. No two ways about it. How it's just drip drip drip with this player this day and a few days later another player just really sucks. I didn't think it was over even after Wadley. This really bums me out.
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Yeah I'm with ya. We can't have our heads in the sand. We need to be better then that. The way Fleming articulated his story seems very believable. I dunno… Question is if that's all true then what? Is that fireable? Slap on the wrist? I mean I can't see it brushed under the rug I just can't... Again I use the words if it's true...
QuadCityHawkeye
Well-Known Member
Here is what I don't get. Nearly every player who has spoken up on the issue of racial inequality did not have a problem with Kirk. Many praised him and said he's not part of the issue.
Then you a select few who are throwing Kirk around as a bad guy. This doesn't add up. I can see people disliking Doyle and Brian because of their personalities, but Kirk has almost always been seen as a good guy. Doyle is gone and rightfully so, and I doubt Brian ever gets the head job. Seems like most players had issues with Doyle and some with Brian. Now we have some saying Kirk is not a good guy as well after so many spoke well of him.
This isn't adding up with Kirk. Either he has a split personality he can switch on and off like a light or these players are lying.
This is mucking up the inital message that Mike Daniels and James Daniels were bringing to light. IMO Robert T Green is a scum bag looking to use these players for a payday.
Then you a select few who are throwing Kirk around as a bad guy. This doesn't add up. I can see people disliking Doyle and Brian because of their personalities, but Kirk has almost always been seen as a good guy. Doyle is gone and rightfully so, and I doubt Brian ever gets the head job. Seems like most players had issues with Doyle and some with Brian. Now we have some saying Kirk is not a good guy as well after so many spoke well of him.
This isn't adding up with Kirk. Either he has a split personality he can switch on and off like a light or these players are lying.
This is mucking up the inital message that Mike Daniels and James Daniels were bringing to light. IMO Robert T Green is a scum bag looking to use these players for a payday.
1980HAWKFAN
Well-Known Member
I'm still in the camp of waiting on the results from the investigation. I said it earlier in a post that people will flat out lie about stuff. One player says something and then it starts to snowball with others start piling on. Can't explain why people would do that, but they will. Had it happen to me. Wish I was a bit more tech advanced I would put a link to Mike Ferroni facebook post about Kirk. He had some nice comments about his experience with Kirk and his time with the Hawks.
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
Doesn't matter to the mob. It's basically like the guys from Enron displaying how much of their ill-gotten funds they donated to charities around Houston during the sentencing phase of their trials.
MWS604
Well-Known Member
If past is prologue, we only need to go back to the last investigation into this Athletic Dept. - the Jane Meyer and Tracey Griesbaum debacle. It cost the Athletic Dept a bunch of money, there was an internal investigation and nobody lost their job. I believe the recommendations from that investigation included diversity training. The primary purpose of the current investigation will be to keep most of the remaining evidence private and to put the best possible spin in the final report and recommendations. The purpose of these former athletes going public is require the investigators to at least publicly address the claims. Since Doyle is already out of the picture, my guess is that the primary recommendation from the current investigation will be anti-racist training.
Also, I see nothing wrong with the "Iowa Way" IF that means a culture of discipline, hard work, and humility. Where this philosophy goes off the rails is directly related to the methods of negative reinforcement of the "Iowa Way" that some coaches have used. Also, implicit personal appearance restrictions such as no dreadlocks, tattoos, and body-piercings have nothing to do with discipline, hard work, or humility. So cut out this crap and concentrate on what is important.
Also, I see nothing wrong with the "Iowa Way" IF that means a culture of discipline, hard work, and humility. Where this philosophy goes off the rails is directly related to the methods of negative reinforcement of the "Iowa Way" that some coaches have used. Also, implicit personal appearance restrictions such as no dreadlocks, tattoos, and body-piercings have nothing to do with discipline, hard work, or humility. So cut out this crap and concentrate on what is important.
kicker22
Well-Known Member
I'm torn by Canzeri's tweet. As the investigation is underway I try to listen to the former players come forward with an open mind and feel that to some extent they are all being truthful regarding the matter. I also feel that as the university is investigating these matters and are not currently discussing the matters publicly that it's unfair to cast judgement as they will address the allegations when the time is right and the investigation is concluded.
What I don't understand is Jordan's logic. Jordan comes out and defends his friend and former roommate and it appears based on the way he expresses himself that he was aware of what Akrum was going through and went through, to some extent or another, similiar experiences. While he doesn't attack the program he definitely brings to light that issues do exist inside the program that need to be addressed.
The part that I don't understand is that a lot of what Akrum brought to the surface was directly aimed at coach Ferentz. It wasn't that KF was ignorant of the culture or unaware of what was going on, but according to Wadley, he was part of it. So my question is if KF is part of the problem and the culture, and has been part of the problem, then what makes Jordan so sure that KF will "make sure that the positive changes needed will be made". Like i said I'm trying to be open minded, but if KF was as much a part of the problem as some players are indicating I don't see how the changes needed can be made with him leading the program into the future.
Yeah good question... I don't know. It's a tough thing to reconcile. In this cancel culture going on where folks are losing jobs for stuff they tweeted years ago to now how something like this wouldn't be doesn't make much sense. Every kid has different experiences and even if their experiences are very similar they may not look at them as being as bad.
Such as some people look at the type of music being played in the WR as culturally insensitive/racist. Some think since it affects all the players the same way and 99% of them probably all don't want to listen to country and 90s rock whites and blacks alike. So that's where smarter folks then me have to get involved.
All I know is if a kid tries multiple times to transfer and is getting road blocked not just encouraged in a thought provoking way not to but legitimately road blocked from being able to start the process that can't happen. Black/white doesn't matter.
RobHowe
Administrator
Get in line.
Two comments related to Maurice Flemming's story:
1) I know nothing of Robert T. Green beyond what information is available on his website. He clearly has an agenda and an apparent strategy to slow-drip player stories onto social media. I have to wonder what his motives are. Perhaps it is as simple as wanting to give players a voice. If so, that's great. I obviously don't like what I'm reading, but the simple dignity of respecting another's voice and viewpoint is something I will never have a quarrel with. Maybe it's not that simple. Does he have a history with Iowa? Any coaches past or present? A relationship to another Big10 school? It can be safely assumed that he has some type of relationship with an aggrieved player or players. Of what nature? How much of the players' stories are their own and how much are they manicured to present a very specific way?
None of those are accusations. But they are fair questions which can affect the credibility of stories from players who are associated with him. I do not believe that Akrum and Maurice are lying and I think there was unfair treatment and unhappiness. I also can't be certain their memories haven't been colored to some extent by people with their own agendas.
2) When it comes to player positions and/or depth charts, I am hesitant to buy into claims of lying by any coaching staff. Coaches don't know from class to class who they'll be able to recruit, so position and depth are fluid for every team, every year, every sport. Yes, I'm sure coaches do recruit some athletes with no intention of ever playing them where they claim. It would be naive to think otherwise. I also think it's orders of magnitude more common that a player is honestly recruited for a specific position and then gets moved because of 1) other recruits who sign, 2) deficiencies at another position on the team, and 3) coaches see something different in practice than they saw on film.
And we don't know what was said that Maurice feels constitutes lying. For example, kid comes in as a db, after his first preseason the coaches tell him they don't think he'll ever be a starter in the defensive backfield, but there's a need for athletes at WR and he'll have the opportunity in a year or two to see some significant minutes. I can understand feelings of disappointment, maybe of being lied to, maybe of betrayal. Was that kid lied to? Were the coaches dishonest? Or was that how it felt because the player was unhappy with the outcome? I also don't know how things went down with Maurice, which is the point. Without knowing the specifics, that claim is nothing but shades of gray.
As for everything else that Maurice described, I feel for him. It was wrong. It shouldn't have happened.
1) I know nothing of Robert T. Green beyond what information is available on his website. He clearly has an agenda and an apparent strategy to slow-drip player stories onto social media. I have to wonder what his motives are. Perhaps it is as simple as wanting to give players a voice. If so, that's great. I obviously don't like what I'm reading, but the simple dignity of respecting another's voice and viewpoint is something I will never have a quarrel with. Maybe it's not that simple. Does he have a history with Iowa? Any coaches past or present? A relationship to another Big10 school? It can be safely assumed that he has some type of relationship with an aggrieved player or players. Of what nature? How much of the players' stories are their own and how much are they manicured to present a very specific way?
None of those are accusations. But they are fair questions which can affect the credibility of stories from players who are associated with him. I do not believe that Akrum and Maurice are lying and I think there was unfair treatment and unhappiness. I also can't be certain their memories haven't been colored to some extent by people with their own agendas.
2) When it comes to player positions and/or depth charts, I am hesitant to buy into claims of lying by any coaching staff. Coaches don't know from class to class who they'll be able to recruit, so position and depth are fluid for every team, every year, every sport. Yes, I'm sure coaches do recruit some athletes with no intention of ever playing them where they claim. It would be naive to think otherwise. I also think it's orders of magnitude more common that a player is honestly recruited for a specific position and then gets moved because of 1) other recruits who sign, 2) deficiencies at another position on the team, and 3) coaches see something different in practice than they saw on film.
And we don't know what was said that Maurice feels constitutes lying. For example, kid comes in as a db, after his first preseason the coaches tell him they don't think he'll ever be a starter in the defensive backfield, but there's a need for athletes at WR and he'll have the opportunity in a year or two to see some significant minutes. I can understand feelings of disappointment, maybe of being lied to, maybe of betrayal. Was that kid lied to? Were the coaches dishonest? Or was that how it felt because the player was unhappy with the outcome? I also don't know how things went down with Maurice, which is the point. Without knowing the specifics, that claim is nothing but shades of gray.
As for everything else that Maurice described, I feel for him. It was wrong. It shouldn't have happened.
racerhawk
Well-Known Member
I would refer you to what the black players are saying. They seem to think that derogatory comments made by Doyle based upon race were racist. I would like to believe that Doyle wasn't saying racist things, but when 20-30 or more black players say this, I think we should pay attention. A comment about "sending....back to the ghetto" seems pretty racist.
Personally, as a white guy, I don't know that I'm the best person to define racism towards black football players (especially when I wasn't there). I do tend to believe the players, though. I understand that some of you absolutely don't believe the players. I find that troubling.
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
I thought that particular comment has been debunked as so-called "fake news" and that the actual quote was "I'll send you back to Jacksonville" and it was subsequently determined that he said the same, but with different town names depending on who the hapless kid who didn't work himself to the edge of rhabdo was.
My guess would be that Canzieri believes in KF's heart, but thinks he was ignorant about certain things. Hence that confidence that as he becomes more aware of the challenges of being black in the Iowa program, things will improve for the better (sounds like things have already gotten substantially better over the last couple years).
Former Hawks are all brothers, as well, so they will and should defend one another. If Wadley told his story straight to a bunch of his teammates, they might call BS on some aspects that are exaggerated. But when he tells his story to the public, and Joe Schmoe who doesn't have the slightest clue of what these players go through starts tearing the story to pieces on Twitter, damn right Wadley's teammates are going to back him up.
As @racerhawk says above, if this was just a couple guys you blow it off as players who couldn't hack it. But it is dozens of guys, which means something was wrong. Sounds like they are working hard to fix it. Personally, I hope KF gets to stick around to participate in the fixing, because I have emotional investment in believing he is a good dude, and it would be hard if it turned out I was living a lie by cheering for him and championing his character. But if it turns out that he was a big part of the problem, I will deal with it, and the "pain" that causes me will be infinitesimal compared to what some of these players have gone through.
