Playing out of position

N

NikeHawk21

Well-Known Member
I got to thinking about how many guys were playing out of their natural position this year and decided to take a closer look.

Player: (Natural Pos)(Where they played)

JBo: (1/2)(1) - Not really looking for a big debate here on his natural spot. We’ve had that one many times, he was our best PG so he played PG.

Cook: (5)(4) - I’ve said for months his natural spot is 5. He operates from the low post, doesn’t have much in the midrange, and can’t move his feet laterally enough to guard 4s in this league.

Moss: (2)(2)

Garza: (5)(5)

Baer: (3/4)(3) - I’ll leave this as a 3 for now, but I still think an argument can be made he’s more of a 4. He’s a good rebounder but doesn’t handle the ball or penetrate enough to be a 3.

Dailey: (2/3) (1/2/3) - Did an admirable job filling in at PG but that’s not his spot.

Pemsl: (5)(4) - Hasn’t hit a midrange shot in two years. He operates on the block and doesn’t have the footspeed to defend 4s, he’s a undersized 5 man.

Nunge: (4)(3) - This has been much discussed and was a terrible decision by Fran. He did start a few games at 4 and played well then.

Kriener: (5)(4) - similar to Pemsl although he has more of an outside shot. Still he prefers to operate on the block and doesn’t have the footspeed to guard 4s.

Wagner: (4)(3) - He’s a real tweener but he’s definitely more of a 4 than a 3.


Basically we played a bunch of 5s at the 4 and a bunch of 4s at the 3. Of the 10 guys above at least 5 were playing out of their natural position and that doesn’t even include Dailey being forced to play the 1 and Baer who you could argue is a 4. About half of our guys were out of position, no wonder we sucked. That’s on Fran and his goal of playing everyone as it ultimately hurt our teams chances and individual players chances to succeed.
 
I mostly agree, except:

- Cook is a 4 because of lack of size to guard the 5. Not all 4's can be stretch 4's with 3 point range.
- Moss is a 3 (although wing players are often interchangeable)
- As far as the Baer/Nunge debate, IMO they are stretch 4's and not wing players.

If I had to make an off-season depth chart (similar to spring football), I'd go with this:

5: Nunge / Kriener / Pemsl
4: Cook / Baer or Nunge / Wagner
3: Moss
2: JBo / Dailey / Ellingson
1: JBo?? / Connor

As you can see, we have too many post players and not enough guards/wing players. IMO, we won't improve much until we balance the roster. I really like the post players. They seem like fine young men and I'm proud to have them as Hawkeyes. But just like you can't play the 3rd string left guard at wide receiver.... you can't play back up post players on the wing.
 
At this point I think Bohannon has to be listed as at least a combo guard. While practically none of us think he's a "true" point guard, he did finish 2nd in the Big Ten in assists this year. in 2 years he has 353 total assists, and has a career 2.5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio.

If people think Jeff Horner was a point guard or combo guard, a healthy Bohannon is going to blow all of Horner's stats out of the water
 
KCRC said:
I mostly agree, except:

- Cook is a 4 because of lack of size to guard the 5. Not all 4's can be stretch 4's with 3 point range.
- Moss is a 3 (although wing players are often interchangeable)
- As far as the Baer/Nunge debate, IMO they are stretch 4's and not wing players.

If I had to make an off-season depth chart (similar to spring football), I'd go with this:

5: Nunge / Kriener / Pemsl
4: Cook / Baer or Nunge / Wagner
3: Moss
2: JBo / Dailey / Ellingson
1: JBo?? / Connor

As you can see, we have too many post players and not enough guards/wing players. IMO, we won't improve much until we balance the roster. I really like the post players. They seem like fine young men and I'm proud to have them as Hawkeyes. But just like you can't play the 3rd string left guard at wide receiver.... you can't play back up post players on the wing.
Click to expand...
Good post. I agree with Moss actually but the 2 & 3 spots are really interchangeable as you said.

As far as Cook I still feel he is a 5. Here are some B1G 5 men of similar size:

Cook: 6’9 / 255
Happ: 6’10 / 235
Ward: 6’8 / 245
Pardon: 6’8 / 236
Wesson: 6’9 / 270
Fernando: 6’10 / 245
Wagner: 6’11 / 245

Cook would still start at 4 for me alongside Garza, but when Garza went out Cook would slide down to the 5 spot.
 
Last edited:
I think we are OK with Cook as a low-post 4 because Garza is a stretch 5. At least one of those two positions must be a stretch player in today's game. Better if it's both, but at least one.
 
Knight78 said:
I think we are OK with Cook as a low-post 4 because Garza is a stretch 5. At least one of those two positions must be a stretch player in today's game. Better if it's both, but at least one.
Click to expand...
That’s a good point, and coincidentally we started our best ball at the end of the year which is also when Garza really started hitting his outside shot.

But again our issue isn’t offense. When Cook and Garza are both in the game we are already at a disadvantage defensively. Cook just can’t keep up with majority of the 4 men in this league.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
That’s a good point, and coincidentally we started our best ball at the end of the year which is also when Garza really started hitting his outside shot.

But again our issue isn’t offense. When Cook and Garza are both in the game we are already at a disadvantage defensively. Cook just can’t keep up with majority of the 4 men in this league.
Click to expand...

I think Cook DOES have the athleticism and foot speed to keep up with most of the 4 men in the league. Something else is missing.... either technique, desire/motivation or practice reps. I'm not close enough to the program to say which with certainty. I've watched a lot of basketball this past weekend. I saw many post players with a lot less quickness and size than Cook playing very solid defense within the team concept. I have no doubt Cook could do the same if that were the expectation and the proper techniques were repped in practice.
 
Much of this depends on the offense a team is playing, which can change throughout a game depending on what is happening. I. E. A team that goes small ball may have a 5 but really isn't a true 5 in the numbering system. For example, a commentator on the BIG network was talking about if Purdue went small ball, then Vince Edwards would play the 5.

So, the numbering system is kind of getting antiquated to a degree, because the styles of offense teams are playing is so much different.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
That’s a good point, and coincidentally we started our best ball at the end of the year which is also when Garza really started hitting his outside shot.

But again our issue isn’t offense. When Cook and Garza are both in the game we are already at a disadvantage defensively. Cook just can’t keep up with majority of the 4 men in this league.
Click to expand...


You wouldn't really have a stretch 5, would you? Don't you typically have to have a smaller number player be described as a stretch. Like a taller #3 or #4 being described as a stretch 3 or 4. I think a 7' 5 is just a 5. I'm just nitpicking for sake of discussion. I've never heard of a player being described as a stretch 5 as the center is supposed to be one of the longer players out there, well when the numbering system was developed anyway.

Oops, this was supposed to go to Wartburg dude above.
 
Knight78 said:
I think we are OK with Cook as a low-post 4 because Garza is a stretch 5. At least one of those two positions must be a stretch player in today's game. Better if it's both, but at least one.
Click to expand...


You wouldn't really have a stretch 5, would you? Don't you typically have to have a smaller number player be described as a stretch. Like a taller #3 or #4 being described as a stretch 3 or 4. I think a 7' 5 is just a 5. I'm just nitpicking for sake of discussion. I've never heard of a player being described as a stretch 5 as the center is supposed to be one of the longer players out there, well when the numbering system was developed anyway.
 
KCRC said:
I think Cook DOES have the athleticism and foot speed to keep up with most of the 4 men in the league. Something else is missing.... either technique, desire/motivation or practice reps. I'm not close enough to the program to say which with certainty. I've watched a lot of basketball this past weekend. I saw many post players with a lot less quickness and size than Cook playing very solid defense within the team concept. I have no doubt Cook could do the same if that were the expectation and the proper techniques were repped in practice.
Click to expand...
I agree with that. The athleticism is not the issue.
 
I certainly think some of it has to do with the roster construction forcing guys playing out of position but I also think some of it has to do with lack of talent and having some tweeners.

For example, at 6'8" Cordell Pemsl was never going to be a 5 in the Big 10. So just because he has the skills that closer match to a 5, I can't label him as an undersized 5. It's probably more appropriate to label him as a 4 with 1950s style offense. Cordell playing the 4 isn't out of position, he's just not that good offensively.

Baer- he's a tweener and just not that great offensively. I'm not even sure he's that great of a fundamental defender. I think he makes some exciting plays with steals and blocks because of his length but in terms of on ball and help defense, I don't think he's that good. At 210 pounds, he'd be undersized at the 4.

Kriener- Again just a couple inches short at 6'9" to be a true 5. I think he could be similar to Garza if he was just a little bit taller like Garza at 6'11". I still think Kriener's best service moving forward will be playing the 5 spot behind Garza. Part of this still has to due with the roster construction and having Cook/Nunge at the 4.

Wagner- Tweener who like Baer and Pemsl isn't a good offensive player.

Dailey- playing the point was never the plan, no other options after Williams transferred and Connor got sick but I think next year we'll see him back to just playing the wing and coming off the bench.

I'm still happy we have both Nunge and Garza as I think they are set up to be key building blocks of the future for this roster. We also add in 3 guards next year and I'm anticipating 2 of the 3 to have an impact.

I have said this in other threads but moving forward I want to see a rotation below which has more guards:

JBo/Connor
Moss/Dailey
Weiskamp/Baer
Cook/Nunge
Garza/Kriener
 
MelroseHawkins said:
You wouldn't really have a stretch 5, would you? Don't you typically have to have a smaller number player be described as a stretch. Like a taller #3 or #4 being described as a stretch 3 or 4. I think a 7' 5 is just a 5. I'm just nitpicking for sake of discussion. I've never heard of a player being described as a stretch 5 as the center is supposed to be one of the longer players out there, well when the numbering system was developed anyway.
Click to expand...

I think when describing a player's abilities, calling them a "stretch" player refers to their ability to play offense effectively farther from the basket. Thus a "5" is a traditional back to the basket 5 who plays only in the lane and a "stretch 5" is effective handling the ball and shooting from well beyond the lane. I would consider Haas from Purdue a 5 but Garza a stretch 5. (When Garza made his first three point attempt this year, he made more than Haas has attempted in his career)
 
Our issues are due to a combination of things for sure and playing guys out of their natural spots is certainly one of them. For the fun of it my ideal spot for these guys are

JBo 1/2
CM 1/2

Moss 2. He doesn't mix it up inside the 3 pt line enough to be a 3 to me. Something I'd like to see more of actually

Dailey 2/1/3 I prefer him at the two. He's better at catching and shooting than he seems to be off the dribble. I'd prefer he stay at 2 most of the time

Ellingson 2

Baer 3 (I see some suggesting he's a 4 and that's nuts. He's not nearly big/strong enough for that) If you think JBo isn't a 1 then Baer sure as heck isn't a 4 because he can't/don't post anyone up ever and he can't guard 4s at all. Not even a little bit. And he's not a good enough ball handler/shooter to be a 2 so he's a 3 to me

Wagner is a 4 trapped in a 3s body. He just doesn't have the skills to be a 3.

Nunge is a stretch 4 in every sense of the term. He might have the potential to play more 3 down the road but he's not there now.

Pemsl is a 4. An old school one. Kinda like the pre Karl Malone, Barkley ones before they developed mid range jumpers and just played with back to the basket around the hoop. He can't shoot past 10 feet and brings little to the game besides setting screens and the occasional hoop inside and occasional hustle play. I guess he's got more of a 5 mans game. He's just not nearly tall/big enough (since he lost weight) to play it.

Kreiner is a 4/5 I'd like to see more of him he's kind of a tougher guy for me to gauge. When he's on he's a pretty good player. I'm not sure 5 suits him all that well but I'm not sure he's athletic enough to play the 4 exclusively. He's a bit of a tweener between those two spots but for the amount of mins he gets that's alright

Cook is a 5/4 due to his lack of shooting touch. Although he's got potential I think to be so much more. I think the only thing really holding him back is the mental side of the game. He can handle the ball. He can fly up and down the court and make hustle plays. He just makes the wrong play too often with the ball and doesn't hustle often enough. He should be dominating on the glass. One on one in the post with the ball he's unstoppable at this level pretty much. He can get a good look whenever he wants. I wish Reggie Evans could tutor him for a summer on rebounding, D and hustling. Then he has to get better at the team side of playing the game at both ends

Garza 4/5. Note how I flip he and Cook. I think when they are on the floor together (which often they are) That's what fits them. Garza can face up and shoot on guys. And has a good feel for when to do it and take a guy off the dribble/post up. I would bring up these two only in the context of when they were on the floor together but David Robinson and Tim Duncan. Timmy was able to shoot those 15 footers from the baseline and off the glass from the elbow pretty much day 1 (as a 4 yr college player his game was as polished as any big guys has ever been day 1 in the modern NBA) But Robinson was more of the traditional 5 man although he did stretch his game out some the older he got too.
 
ibahawkeye said:
I certainly think some of it has to do with the roster construction forcing guys playing out of position but I also think some of it has to do with lack of talent and having some tweeners.

I have said this in other threads but moving forward I want to see a rotation below which has more guards:

JBo/Connor
Moss/Dailey
Weiskamp/Baer
Cook/Nunge
Garza/Kriener
Click to expand...

We agree. We can get lost in the debate of whether our post players are out of position or are tweeners. However you come out on that debate, it doesn't change the fact that we need more guards and more quickness.

With what we know about next year's roster, I like your proposed rotation. However, I'm concerned with the quickness of Weiskamp/Baer at the "3" spot. I'm also concerned that Coach McCaffrey will continue to play Pemsl and Wagner, pushing Nunge to the 3 and Weiskamp to the 2, making matters worse.
 
I would argue with anyone that Pemsl is a 5. He is about the same size as Nick Ward and Derek Pardon who are successful 5s in this league. He can’t shoot a midrange shot and he can’t defend 4s due to his lack of footspeed. He’s clearly a 5.
 
Hawkfnntn said:
Baer 3 (I see some suggesting he's a 4 and that's nuts. He's not nearly big/strong enough for that) If you think JBo isn't a 1 then Baer sure as heck isn't a 4 because he can't/don't post anyone up ever and he can't guard 4s at all. Not even a little bit. And he's not a good enough ball handler/shooter to be a 2 so he's a 3 to me
Click to expand...
A few years ago I would agree that Baer isn’t a 4, but in today’s game he most certainly is.

Duncan Robinson primarily plays the 4 for Michigan. He’s 6’8/215. Baer is 6’7/205. Vince Edwards and Lamar Stevens both 6’8/225. Maryland played a lot of the season with 4 “guards” basically asking Heurter 6’7/190 to play the 4. Baer would be a little undersized at the 4, but certainly not overmatched.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Share this page

Top