Peyton Mansell in Transfer Portal

[CP87]

In the Big Ten, and especially in Iowa's place in the world, there's zero, and I mean zero, chance that going to an RPO guy would work. You'd end up with Adrian Martinez 2.0 and it's one of the reasons Frost can't make it work there. You'd have a guy who can't throw worth a F who's injured all the time and worthless as tits on a boar.

Get a guy who can both run and throw you say?

Well, there are teams that're able to do that and they're called Clemson and Alabama. Any QB who's good enough to fit that bill is going to the SEC/ACC for a top 5 team, not Iowa. Play action is what works here, and we can get recruits who are good at it. Iowa would be getting sloppy thirds and fourths in the RPO quarterback market; don't screw it up by trying to ram a square peg into a round hole.

We've proven we can recruit and develop elite OLs more often than not and we crank out early draft picks like clockwork. Along with TEs who can block and catch screams pocket QBs. People wanting some Lamar Jackson wannabe scrambler type couldn't be more wrong.

I agree it would be nigh-impossible to get an elite dual-threat guy, and we can take advantage of a market-inefficiency and get a pro-style guy that is better than would have been available to us a decade ago.

However, Tanner Morgan in Minnesota has shown you don't need to be an elite dual threat QB to be very successful with RPO. Minnesota had the 7th best offensive efficiency in the nation last year and were essentially tied with Wisky for 2nd best in conference behind OSU. We'll see how they do now that Johnson is moving on to the NFL, but what they have up there seems real. As long as refs continue to let OL get 5 yards down field on passes (even though the rules say 3), and you have a QB who is a great ball-handler and can make quick decisions and deliver accurately, RPO is deadly.

 

[CP87]

Hope he rips it up, it will be fun to keep tabs on him down there! I am kind of enjoying Iowa as a QB farm system for other programs. It means we are bringing in lots of good guys and doing a good job developing them.

 

[Fryowa]

I agree it would be nigh-impossible to get an elite dual-threat guy, and we can take advantage of a market-inefficiency and get a pro-style guy that is better than would have been available to us a decade ago.

However, Tanner Morgan in Minnesota has shown you don't need to be an elite dual threat QB to be very successful with RPO. Minnesota had the 7th best offensive efficiency in the nation last year and were essentially tied with Wisky for 2nd best in conference behind OSU. We'll see how they do now that Johnson is moving on to the NFL, but what they have up there seems real. As long as refs continue to let OL get 5 yards down field on passes (even though the rules say 3), and you have a QB who is a great ball-handler and can make quick decisions and deliver accurately, RPO is deadly.

Tanner Morgan's absolutely not a dual threat guy, though. Can't call him an RPO quarterback if he never pressures defenses with the run, because the premise of being an RPO quarterback is that the QB run is dangerous. B1G coordinators know he's no threat to take off with the ball, rather their success was because of his OL, receivers, and a weak schedule.

He's a really good pocket passer, but just because he lines up in Fleck's prototypical RPO "sets" doesn't mean a lot if he never runs. I'll admit that a lot of people mistake Morgan for an RPO guy, but he isn't. Morgan finished the year with -57 rushing yards on 61 attempts and 1 TD, even Stanley had 7 net rushing yards on 76 attempts.

Guys like Justin Fields, Trevor Lawrence, Jalen Hurts...those are true dual threat guys and we all know they'd never give Iowa even a cursory glance. We don't even offer 'em. Shopping for a Lexus QB is out of our price range, and once we get to the Kia aisle that we can afford, you get the Taylor Martinezes and Garrett Shraders of the world. I'll pass on that. All those guys contribute to their team are interceptions, injuries, and losses.

 

[CP87]

Tanner Morgan's absolutely not a dual threat guy, though. Can't call him an RPO quarterback if he never pressures defenses with the run, because the premise of being an RPO quarterback is that the QB run is dangerous. B1G coordinators know he's no threat to take off with the ball, rather their success was because of his OL, receivers, and a weak schedule.

He's a really good pocket passer, but just because he lines up in Fleck's prototypical RPO "sets" doesn't mean a lot if he never runs. I'll admit that a lot of people mistake Morgan for an RPO guy, but he isn't. Morgan finished the year with -57 rushing yards on 61 attempts and 1 TD, even Stanley had 7 net rushing yards on 76 attempts.

Guys like Justin Fields, Trevor Lawrence, Jalen Hurts...those are true dual threat guys and we all know they'd never give Iowa even a cursory glance. We don't even offer 'em. Shopping for a Lexus QB is out of our price range, and once we get to the Kia aisle that we can afford, you get the Taylor Martinezes and Garrett Shraders of the world. I'll pass on that. All those guys contribute to their team are interceptions, injuries, and losses.

RPO does not mean the QB has to be a run option himself, but rather it means the QB makes a read to determine if he should give the ball to the RB, or if he should pull the ball and pass. Oftentimes the QB is also a running threat, which essentially creates a triple-option, but what Minn does is absolutely RPO. Morgan reads the D to see if the LBs are stepping up on run, and if so, he pulls and throws the slant to Johnson/Bateman behind them. Chip Kelly did a lot of this in Philly with Nick Foles, who was far from a nimble runner.

My alma mater, Luther College, was using this offensively in the early 2000's. The coach at the time was Paul Hefty, my O-coordinator for one year in 1996, and one of the best coaches I ever had. He said the first coach he knew of to really embrace these concepts was Joe Tiller in the early 90's at Wyoming, and of course later at Purdue. It has been all the rage for the last 5 years after Urban and Chip Kelly started using it with elite athletes.

Coincidentally, I just googled Coach Hefty to see what he was up to, and he is a professor at Penn State, teaching (among other things) Coaching Football. The first link I clicked took me to a brief video where he introduces the Triangle-O Spread RPO system.

 

[CP87]

It is possible that Petras could be an effective RPO guy. He clearly is not quick of foot (but neither was Nick Foles), but you could likely put him in the pistol, and if he was an exceptional ball handler, quick thinker, and had a quick release, it would work.

I am curious about Padilla. I am pretty bullish on the potential Petras-era, but I wonder if Padilla might not have many similar characteristics to a Drew Brees/Tanner Morgan type QB. I guess we will have to wait until we can see these guys get snaps.

 

[pythagoras]

What Minn does is absolutely RPO.

Who cares Minnesota sucks and so does RPO

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

Morgan is definitely an RPO quarterback, and a highly effective one.

I think the confusion is that RPO is often confused with read-option. In that case, it is the QB who decides to keep and run the ball depending upon his read during the mesh point. He's usually reading the reaction of whoever is at the 5-technique, whether they crash down or stay home. That's more the typical "dual-threat" QB.

In the RPO, the QB could still run it himself, but generally it's either completion of the handoff to the RB, or pass the ball.

 

[Fryowa]

RPO does not mean the QB has to be a run option himself.

That was actually my point. A quarterback doesn't distinguish himself at all between and RPO vs play action scheme unless he's a threat to run. The premise of this thread was partly about whether it'd be better to have a dual threat running QB vs the pro-style play action thing we have done forever. In other words, Morgan isn't any different type of threat in either type of system than any other "run-of-the-mill" pro-style guy.

In fact, I watched most of their games this year and I'd argue he's less effective against good teams because he doesn't move up in the pocket, which you can get away with against teams without elite DLs like Purdue, NW, etc, but he gets sacked a lot against better teams. In fact, he got sacked 7 more times than Stanley this year.

 

[Fryowa]

Morgan is definitely an RPO quarterback, and a highly effective one.

I think the confusion is that RPO is often confused with read-option. In that case, it is the QB who decides to keep and run the ball depending upon his read during the mesh point. He's usually reading the reaction of whoever is at the 5-technique, whether they crash down or stay home. That's more the typical "dual-threat" QB.

In the RPO, the QB could still run it himself, but generally it's either completion of the handoff to the RB, or pass the ball.

Although there's a schematic difference between RPO and the pass option, there's not a real distinction in QBs from an operator standpoint. A quarterback who flourishes in one will flourish in the other. Both are "pro-style," just with different reads and QB leeway. Which was my point that there's nothing that sets Morgan apart from Minnesota's system and, say, Iowa's.

Aside from whatever system you're running, as a quarterback you're either mobile or you're not. Morgan isn't.

 

[CP87]

That was actually my point. A quarterback doesn't distinguish himself at all between and RPO vs play action scheme unless he's a threat to run. The premise of this thread was partly about whether it'd be better to have a dual threat running QB vs the pro-style play action thing we have done forever. In other words, Morgan isn't any different type of threat in either type of system than any other "run-of-the-mill" pro-style guy.

In fact, I watched most of their games this year and I'd argue he's less effective against good teams because he doesn't move up in the pocket, which you can get away with against teams without elite DLs like Purdue, NW, etc, but he gets sacked a lot against better teams. In fact, he got sacked 7 more times than Stanley this year.

Okay, that makes sense. Whether or not Iowa should incorporate RPO is a completely different discussion, then.

I do think RPO has some pretty important fundamental differences in comparing to play-action. RPO is simpler in design, but in theory there is no "right answer" the defense can come up with since their are options within the play (unlike play action) and the offense can react to whatever you do.

But just like with triple-option run game or the read-option game, the RPO scheme can be neutered by creating confusion at the decision-making points. If the decision-maker chooses wrong, the play is dead.

The other thing about RPO is the lax enforcement of ineligible down field in college ball almost forces you to run it, otherwise you are allowing other teams to take advantage of a loophole that you are eschewing. I think this is mostly due to philosophical objections (both KF and Pat Fitz have raised these objections in multiple news conferences pretty vociferously). KF also felt that way about college punt rules, and stuck with the normal NFL approach for several seasons before he finally relented and chose to accept the advantages afforded teams by the different rules. I wonder if he will finally relent on RPO?

And of course, Iowa has done some RPO. It just has not been a staple.

These videos, which comes from this site, do a great job of explaining the nuance of RPO and package-plays. Most of what I have been describing as RPO the author terms packaged plays, and he defines RPOs as having 2 different options with a choice being made PRE-SNAP, not based on a post-snap read (I am sure his terminology is correct, I am an idiot and he is a professional scout).

 

[CP87]

That was actually my point. A quarterback doesn't distinguish himself at all between and RPO vs play action scheme unless he's a threat to run. The premise of this thread was partly about whether it'd be better to have a dual threat running QB vs the pro-style play action thing we have done forever. In other words, Morgan isn't any different type of threat in either type of system than any other "run-of-the-mill" pro-style guy.

In fact, I watched most of their games this year and I'd argue he's less effective against good teams because he doesn't move up in the pocket, which you can get away with against teams without elite DLs like Purdue, NW, etc, but he gets sacked a lot against better teams. In fact, he got sacked 7 more times than Stanley this year.

And all of the gobbledy gook I wrote above has nothing to do with your point. But I wrote it out, then determined it has nothing to do with your point, but I didn't want to delete it because I like the smell of my own poop. One thing that does relate to your point: in the link I posted the author explains how a running QB can take RPO to a different level.

I do think different QBs succeed in RPO vs. pro-style play-action, however. Iowa's scheme needs a strong-armed QB who can threaten all parts of the field, otherwise you're playing in a phone-booth (sounds familiar, right?). With RPO, you need a sure ball-handler and quick decision maker. Since the throws are generally quick and short, you don't need a rocket-arm if you are accurate.

Iowa made a lot of hay this year on deep outs to the WRs that just wouldn't be there for a QB like Morgan.

 

[4thngoal]

Well really what is a running quarterback?
Because it seems to me that in today's game rarely does a qb bust off a 60 yard td run and I don't think most coaches want them to take open field full speed hits anyway.
Seems to me that a "running qb" just needs to be a scrambler more than anything. Light on his feet. We have all seen pro set qb's that can do that. Really a running qb is only asked to get 5-6 yards most of the time.
But quick is a very inaccurate term just as running qb is. It's the ability to be slippery or scramble that is helpful in getting 5 yards. Unless you are taking it to the sidelines, then you need to cut harder and be able to turn on the Jets a little.

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

Although there's a schematic difference between RPO and the pass option, there's not a real distinction in QBs from an operator standpoint. A quarterback who flourishes in one will flourish in the other. Both are "pro-style," just with different reads and QB leeway. Which was my point that there's nothing that sets Morgan apart from Minnesota's system and, say, Iowa's.

Aside from whatever system you're running, as a quarterback you're either mobile or you're not. Morgan isn't.

Actually, from a prototype standpoint within the offensive system, there is a significant difference between the two.

In an RPO offense, the quarterback has to be reasonably mobile within a small space within the pocket, AND also has to be an effective passer, but doesn't necessarily have to be a threat to run the ball himself. The "threat" is that the defense has to decide in a split second whether to step forward to play the run (the RB) or fade back to play the pass.

In a read-option offense, the QB doesn't necessarily have to be an effective passer, but definitely has to be an effective runner. Those offenses are predicated on a high run percentage, and both the QB and RBs run the ball, depending upon the decision made at the mesh point. A relatively immobile QB would allow the defense to key on the RB, completely neutralizing the offense. An immobile QB in an RPO offense, however, such as Morgan, can still be quite effective if he has a quick accurate release.

Zone-read offenses run out of spread formation kind of combine the two (think Urban Meyer's offense), in which case the QB has to be at least a reasonable throwing threat, but also has the options of handing it off or running.

 

[guffus]

I don't know if this was posted yet.

Mansell has announced he is transferring to Abilene Christian University. An FCS school in Abilene, Texas. Let's year starting QB at ACU is transferring. But the backup QB at ACU saw lots of action as a dual threat running QB. So there is no guarantee Mansell will be the starter next year.

 

[Robowe]

I don't know if this was posted yet.

Mansell has announced he is transferring to Abilene Christian University. An FCS school in Abilene, Texas. Let's year starting QB at ACU is transferring. But the backup QB at ACU saw lots of action as a dual threat running QB. So there is no guarantee Mansell will be the starter next year.

They are loading up at Abilene Christian ...