Patrick Stepping Away From Basketball

99topdawg said:
As a teacher, I run into parents/adults that always say, "when I was in school, all they needed to do is ____". What they don't get is that kids aren't the same as in the past. I'm on my 2nd generation of students and they are the exact same people with a completely different socio-emotional baseline. I am our school's teacher leader on social-emotional learning and the different classes I've gone through have been really eye opening to me and have made me ashamed of my past attitudes toward mental health. The fact that really did it for me and blew me away was when they showed how the average teenager's position on the GAF scale, which is used to measure mental health, compared to kids from the 1950's. The average teenager today would be institutionalized in the 1950's. Things like social media has killed kids. My fear is where this is going and how much more these things, as well as things that will be added in the future, will continue to damage the mental health of kids.
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I don't know how they could possibly get a baseline on any past generation. Having raised 6 kids graduating over 15 years. I have a M Ed in education but have spent more time in higher ed.

Social media has obvious well documented problems. However it has given kids historically marginalized a voice and a means to connect and find a group.

Bullying violence (assault) is generally way down. Emotional bullying still exist but has shifted somewhat toward special needs kids (both physical and emotional). Schools for whatever reason has to a large degree ignored that subset. It is not uncommon for high end suburban schools to want to push those students out of the district. That has to do with cost and test score prestige. Teachers are bullied to ignore bullying of certain groups by admin. To really call out a bully teacher or admin, you pretty much need to hire an attorney. Schools will do whatever they can to avoid 504s or IEPs to the point of violating FAPE.

For the rank and file kidS OR privlidged kids, protections and help have never been better but there is much more that can be done.

I'm encouraged to see the compassion on here for PM. I know of at least one poster on here that has not so long ago would criticize posters that disagreed with him by inferring they must have been a bullied kid at school which is a terrible thing to do. Bullying involves an imbalance of power and the victims range from special needs to being a well balanced young person. Such inferences are archaic.
 
99topdawg said:
As a teacher, I run into parents/adults that always say, "when I was in school, all they needed to do is ____". What they don't get is that kids aren't the same as in the past. I'm on my 2nd generation of students and they are the exact same people with a completely different socio-emotional baseline. I am our school's teacher leader on social-emotional learning and the different classes I've gone through have been really eye opening to me and have made me ashamed of my past attitudes toward mental health. The fact that really did it for me and blew me away was when they showed how the average teenager's position on the GAF scale, which is used to measure mental health, compared to kids from the 1950's. The average teenager today would be institutionalized in the 1950's. Things like social media has killed kids. My fear is where this is going and how much more these things, as well as things that will be added in the future, will continue to damage the mental health of kids.
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The lack of home structure/family dynamic and social media is a horrible formula. I don't know if you teach at an independent school or within a district of many schools, but the resources that are put into teaching and managing these "behavior kids" or special need is astonishing compared to a couple decades ago. I am shocked at the pure number of kids that are afflicted.
 
HawkGold said:
I don't know how they could possibly get a baseline on any past generation. Having raised 6 kids graduating over 15 years. I have a M Ed in education but have spent more time in higher ed.
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The scale/test they use today has been around since the '60's, but it's changed many times through the years, so there's no apples to apples comparison. The comparison is the symptoms exhibited on the scale today with the characteristics from before scale was used (suicidal thoughts, flat speech, social involvement, etc.). I can't say how accurate the comparison would be if they had the same scale 75 years ago, but the characteristics of today's teens could've cause them to be labeled and isolated in some manner.
 
99topdawg said:
As a teacher, I run into parents/adults that always say, "when I was in school, all they needed to do is ____". What they don't get is that kids aren't the same as in the past. I'm on my 2nd generation of students and they are the exact same people with a completely different socio-emotional baseline. I am our school's teacher leader on social-emotional learning and the different classes I've gone through have been really eye opening to me and have made me ashamed of my past attitudes toward mental health. The fact that really did it for me and blew me away was when they showed how the average teenager's position on the GAF scale, which is used to measure mental health, compared to kids from the 1950's. The average teenager today would be institutionalized in the 1950's. Things like social media has killed kids. My fear is where this is going and how much more these things, as well as things that will be added in the future, will continue to damage the mental health of kids.
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Thank fortune we have guys like you helping kids.
 
racerhawk said:
I'm really impressed with the responses on this thread. I'll be honest, I'm pleasantly surprised. Maybe times are changing. There still is such a heavy stigma in many circles. Thank you all.

I've spent 30 years working in psychiatric units, and now lead a psychiatric hospital. It's very heartwarming to see empathy and support. It hasn't always been this way.
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I work in the mental health field as well and although it still seems like we've got a long ways to go we're really making strides as a society. The more individuals like Patrick come forward, the more those too afraid to do so see that it's so much more common then people think. It's unfortunate that in addition to the sickness itself that those very same individuals have to feel ashamed due to the stigma surrounding them. Maybe some day people suffering from psychiatric disorders will get treated as those with broken bones, heart conditions, or cancer. I can't applaud individuals like Patrick enough, because they truly have no idea what their actions do with regards to addressing the stigma and the strength it takes to put themselves out there like that.
 
Fryowa said:
I wasn't kidding when I said if you're gonna criticize Patrick over what he's doing you're gonna get banned.

This isn't Twitter; it's not happening here.
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He is on the bench because the team is his family/support group. Basketball is an outlet for him. Even though he is unable to compete on the court right now dealing with anxiety he still loves the game and his team. His father and brother are on the team too.

I coach high school basketball and golf. This past season one of my top golfers wasn't going to go out for golf because she was dealing anxiety. She loves to play golf with her friends but the meets were too much for her. We all wanted her on the team so she continued to practice but didn't compete in the meets. It was still an outlet for her. She was so happy she could still part of the team and so was everyone. I learned a lot from her. She was so brave to come to me and tell me her situation instead of just quitting. We were able to work things out where it worked for everyone. She was also a great mentor to the younger players.

I agree with what you are all saying mental health issues should not be looked down on. You shouldn't have to be scared you will ridiculed and called "crazy". Society has become more accepting but like the one poster said it should be considered the same as a broken bone. Shouldn't have to be accepting should just be. No matter who you are at some point in your life you have gone through shit. Think about who was there for you and what if they weren't? So be there for someone everyday. Kindness and understanding go along way even if you don't know exactly what to do.
 
kicker22 said:
I work in the mental health field as well and although it still seems like we've got a long ways to go we're really making strides as a society. The more individuals like Patrick come forward, the more those too afraid to do so see that it's so much more common then people think. It's unfortunate that in addition to the sickness itself that those very same individuals have to feel ashamed due to the stigma surrounding them. Maybe some day people suffering from psychiatric disorders will get treated as those with broken bones, heart conditions, or cancer. I can't applaud individuals like Patrick enough, because they truly have no idea what their actions do with regards to addressing the stigma and the strength it takes to put themselves out there like that.
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It's a major goal of mine to help with mental health care simply being part of health care, because of course our minds and bodies are connected. Unfortunately there is still a ton of stigma. Some of that may be related to people needing education about this issue. Sometimes, after learning more, or being affected personally in some way, they really change. Others are willfully ignorant, and I think we see that on this board and on teh twitters.

I've had good luck with working to embed psych providers in primary care settings. People don't have to come to a behavioral health waiting room in this scenario, and they can combine visits with their primary care provider and mental health provider in the same day if done well. Those two providers can also do a "warm handoff" and if done well, this is really great.

Also, telehealth for psych has potential. My wife is a psychologist who has worked in outpatient settings. The "no show" rate is pretty high. Currently, she's seeing 6-9 patients a day while at home all through telehealth. The no show rate is almost zero. I think the comfort of getting therapy, in your own home helps. And it seems stigma plays a role in this.

I have hope that some things are improving. Look to communities, hospitals, providers, and even politicians who are actually investing in mental health resources, versus just talking about it. Ask them what their plan is...

Don't trust hospitals that have zero mental health services. Psych loses money. The ones that have divested themselves from all mental health services aren't really helping their communities in this important realm of health care.

It took real courage for Patrick to say what he did. So impressed.
 
WSCR out of Chicago, my favorite sports talk station, had a long time on air personality named Dan McNeil who has battled depression and anxiety during his career.

His time at WSCR, which ended once and for all in 2020, was checkered by terminations, leaves of absence, six week stays in inpatient facilities, and battles with substance abuse.

He was fired for the third, and presumably final time in September 2020 when he made an on air comment about the attire of the Monday Night Football sideline reporter.

Or course his partner was Danny Parkins. Parkins is a snot nosed north lakeshore kid who brags about his pot intake and gambling escapades and has done nothing but get people fired, laid off and reassigned in the six years he has been with the station. Dan Bernstein barely restrains his contempt for him, maybe because Parkins went a long way toward making sure Bernstein's former partner Connor McKnight met the chopping block when the pandemic hit.
 
OlRustyBoy said:
He is on the bench because the team is his family/support group. Basketball is an outlet for him. Even though he is unable to compete on the court right now dealing with anxiety he still loves the game and his team. His father and brother are on the team too.

I coach high school basketball and golf. This past season one of my top golfers wasn't going to go out for golf because she was dealing anxiety. She loves to play golf with her friends but the meets were too much for her. We all wanted her on the team so she continued to practice but didn't compete in the meets. It was still an outlet for her. She was so happy she could still part of the team and so was everyone. I learned a lot from her. She was so brave to come to me and tell me her situation instead of just quitting. We were able to work things out where it worked for everyone. She was also a great mentor to the younger players.

I agree with what you are all saying mental health issues should not be looked down on. You shouldn't have to be scared you will ridiculed and called "crazy". Society has become more accepting but like the one poster said it should be considered the same as a broken bone. Shouldn't have to be accepting should just be. No matter who you are at some point in your life you have gone through shit. Think about who was there for you and what if they weren't? So be there for someone everyday. Kindness and understanding go along way even if you don't know exactly what to do.
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And this really is not a basketball or golf issue. They still luv the sport and probably want to compete. In Patrick's situation, he gets completely exhausted and knows and is open that he may not be able to help his team, a Div 1 basketball team. That is so damn admirable but tough to do.

Again, this is not about sports, it is a diagnosis these individuals have to deal with an manage that can be exacerbated at times by sports. The underlying cause is the diagnosis. To anybody who thinks Patrick is not able to handle basketball or the golfer above can't handle the golf, it just wrong. Those are the collateral damage of the underlying condition.
 
MelroseHawkins said:
And this really is not a basketball or golf issue. They still luv the sport and probably want to compete. In Patrick's situation, he gets completely exhausted and knows and is open that he may not be able to help his team, a Div 1 basketball team. That is so damn admirable but tough to do.

Again, this is not about sports, it is a diagnosis these individuals have to deal with an manage that can be exacerbated at times by sports. The underlying cause is the diagnosis. To anybody who thinks Patrick is not able to handle basketball or the golfer above can't handle the golf, it just wrong. Those are the collateral damage of the underlying condition.
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Absolutely. Well put. I'm glad Patrick was so open about it. He will help not only young athletes but young people in general be able to talk about and get the help they need. Sports and extra curriculars are suppose to be fun. When it becomes that taxing to your mind and physical well being it is time to step away.

So whomever said he just leave the team and not be on the bench has to be the most out of touch person on the planet. What a ridiculous statement. Everyone wants him there and so does he!!
 
The good stuff continues to flood this thread! Yahoo! Fry, you handled the one problem exactly as you said you would and deleted the post. Good job.
 
99topdawg said:
The scale/test they use today has been around since the '60's, but it's changed many times through the years, so there's no apples to apples comparison. The comparison is the symptoms exhibited on the scale today with the characteristics from before scale was used (suicidal thoughts, flat speech, social involvement, etc.). I can't say how accurate the comparison would be if they had the same scale 75 years ago, but the characteristics of today's teens could've cause them to be
Click to expand...

racerhawk said:
It's a major goal of mine to help with mental health care simply being part of health care, because of course our minds and bodies are connected. Unfortunately there is still a ton of stigma. Some of that may be related to people needing education about this issue. Sometimes, after learning more, or being affected personally in some way, they really change. Others are willfully ignorant, and I think we see that on this board and on teh twitters.

I've had good luck with working to embed psych providers in primary care settings. People don't have to come to a behavioral health waiting room in this scenario, and they can combine visits with their primary care provider and mental health provider in the same day if done well. Those two providers can also do a "warm handoff" and if done well, this is really great.

Also, telehealth for psych has potential. My wife is a psychologist who has worked in outpatient settings. The "no show" rate is pretty high. Currently, she's seeing 6-9 patients a day while at home all through telehealth. The no show rate is almost zero. I think the comfort of getting therapy, in your own home helps. And it seems stigma plays a role in this.

I have hope that some things are improving. Look to communities, hospitals, providers, and even politicians who are actually investing in mental health resources, versus just talking about it. Ask them what their plan is...

Don't trust hospitals that have zero mental health services. Psych loses money. The ones that have divested themselves from all mental health services aren't really helping their communities in this important realm of health care.

It took real courage for Patrick to say what he did. So impressed.
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Business doesn't tend to support mental health issues. Glad PM came out about it, but it's not the norm for employers. Hospitals and churches are among the worst.

About appointments when I first started dealing with ptsd and was really starting to get into the weeds, I was on my way just a few blocks away and totally blocked out where I was going. Missed the appt. Was terrible. Got overwhelmed with anxiety. I operated with a high degree of function using adrenalin as my drug addiction. At least until it wore me completely down. I crashed. Weaning off adrenalin was hell. Nightmares, flashbacks, dissociation. All at the worst times when stress was high. We have no idea what PM is dealing with but there will be ups and downs regardless of what he is dealing with.
 
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HawkGold said:
Business doesn't tend to support mental health issues. Glad PM came out about it, but it's not the norm for employers. Hospitals and churches are among the worst.

About appointments when I first started dealing with ptsd and was really starting to get into the weeds, I was on my way just a few blocks away and totally blocked out where I was going. Missed the appt. Was terrible. Got overwhelmed with anxiety. I operated with a high degree of function using adrenalin as my drug addiction. At least until it wore me completely down. I crashed. Weaning off adrenalin was hell. Nightmares, flashbacks, dissociation. All at the worst times when stress was high. We have no idea what PM is dealing with but there will be ups and downs regardless of what hevis dealing with.
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Maybe someday companies will offer short and long term disability for peop.e who are too mentally ill to do their jobs, in the same way they give out disability for physical ailments.

There's still a long way to go, however. Something as common as ADHD wasn't even remotely recognized until about 50 years ago. Many other mental health issues more recent than that.
 
MelroseHawkins said:
For somebody his age and the dynamic of playing for his father coming out and being open about this, I have huge respect for him. That is not easy. Props to him and I hope this eases his path to handle this and get better.

Patrick - We all support you. Always remember you are not alone. This is quite common.

If I may add. There are A LOT of people walking around who deal with this along with depression who are not diagnosed as of yet, of all ages. When I am saying he is not alone, he is not alone. He just has the balls to be open about it. Remarkable!
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I am pretty sure we'll see PMac back this season. I know he loves the game, he loves his team, and he has all the support anyone could ask for, family, friends, fans, and medical professionals. Putting playing time on hold shows a maturity beyond his years. He will be rewarded, I just don't know how.
 
jardinero said:
I am pretty sure we'll see PMac back this season. I know he loves the game, he loves his team, and he has all the support anyone could ask for, family, friends, fans, and medical professionals. Putting playing time on hold shows a maturity beyond his years. He will be rewarded, I just don't know how.
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I think he will to. I was glad to see him roaming the bench at Carver Thursday night. He looked good.
 
If he comes back it doesn't mean he's braver or better and not coming back doesn't make him not better. We really don't know what he's dealing with. If he comes back it doesn't mean he'll stay back or not suffer.These things can take years to recover or can be mitigated quickly. A lot of 2 steps forward, 5 backwards, 3 forward and so on.
 
HawkGold said:
Business doesn't tend to support mental health issues. Glad PM came out about it, but it's not the norm for employers. Hospitals and churches are among the worst.

About appointments when I first started dealing with ptsd and was really starting to get into the weeds, I was on my way just a few blocks away and totally blocked out where I was going. Missed the appt. Was terrible. Got overwhelmed with anxiety. I operated with a high degree of function using adrenalin as my drug addiction. At least until it wore me completely down. I crashed. Weaning off adrenalin was hell. Nightmares, flashbacks, dissociation. All at the worst times when stress was high. We have no idea what PM is dealing with but there will be ups and downs regardless of what he is dealing with.
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Good points. In my hospital, I'm working to develop an evidence based peer support program that can be used across our whole system to help those who experience direct and vicarious trauma. Agree that hospitals can do a lot better because they have to deal with a rather ugly public at times. I'm hoping that we are in fact starting to do better.
 
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