jacknicholson
Well-Known Member
Fran is doing alright, Benddontbreak, it will be very nice to see the Hawks develop under him. The progress made last year was dramatic, and there is no reason not to expect the same this season.
Pat Ingram commits to Iowa
- Thread starter storminspank
- Start date
Offers tend to be the best way to judge how good of a get a player is whether you like it or not. Would Meyer have gotten more offers this summer? Most likely, which is why people are getting more excited about him.
I hope that Nicholson and 12345 are either in high school or are 80 years old, because nothing they say is based on the real world. I wouldn't get too fired up over it. It is tough I know.
jacknicholson
Well-Known Member
What is your point, J? I haven't a clue what you are pitifully attempting to say here. According to your expertise, we should not have offered Meyer because his list of offers wasn't impressive. We should have waited until the offers piled up to determine his value. Are you serious.....your credibility which was poor to begin with, has dropped considerably. If I were you, I would head to the book store to grab the first copy of "How To Construct an Original Thought" you can find. Read it carefully and do the lessons at the end of every chapter. Get back to me when you pass the course.
Wow, you mean he is going to be playing with guys like LaBron, Koby, Howard, Carmelo, etc?
Oh wait, it wasn't the Olympics, but the US under 19 team? Nevermind.
Just kidding. Still an accomplishment to be invited to try out when you consider his ranking out of high school.
As of right now, I trust Fran's judgment. I'm not playing the 'I'm a good fan' card, but rather pointing out that Ingram is not a fallback guy, and McCaffery has brought in two guys with less than stellar offer- Basabe and Cartwright- that ended up being two of the best players on the team.
Ingram is a guy Fran personally recruited, it isn't as if Iowa struck out on a number of SG and offered Ingram late in desperation, it's still early enough in the 2012 game that if Fran didn't think Pat could really help Iowa he wouldn't have offered.
Ingram is a guy Fran personally recruited, it isn't as if Iowa struck out on a number of SG and offered Ingram late in desperation, it's still early enough in the 2012 game that if Fran didn't think Pat could really help Iowa he wouldn't have offered.
tm3308
Well-Known Member
This sums up my feelings exactly. I've seen enough from Fran to this point to trust his judgement on any player's talent. The fact that he's offered early should tell us just how high Fran is on this kid, and that should be enough to get people excited, considering his track record of recognizing talent (again, he was in VERY early on Jimmer, too).
deanvogs
Well-Known Member
I think we need to sit back and take a breathe. This isn't a fall back recruit that we are signing in May. This is a kid that Fran has been personally recruiting. So far Fran seems to be a good judge of BB talent, so I trust him on these things. Many, many kids that end up going to St. Louis, Creighton, UNI, etc. could have been Big10 players if they just had the chance. Lets take McDermott for example, does anyone really think at this point he isn't Big10/Big12 quality player?
The double edge sword on all of this. Imagine if Fran only goes for 4* players, but then continually strikes out. We all know this program isn't in a position to land 4* players all the time. So you either find kids who can play, and get them before the Nov. signing period, or you go after only 4* kids maybe land one or two, and then are scrambling come May to fill out you class. By that time the Ingrams and Meyers of the world have signed elsewhere, and then you are going to fall backs and fall backs to the fall backs.
So while this signing isn't a big name like Gesell, I trust that Fran got a kid he wanted, and will help this program get to where he wants, and we want it to be (back in the NCAA tourney).
The double edge sword on all of this. Imagine if Fran only goes for 4* players, but then continually strikes out. We all know this program isn't in a position to land 4* players all the time. So you either find kids who can play, and get them before the Nov. signing period, or you go after only 4* kids maybe land one or two, and then are scrambling come May to fill out you class. By that time the Ingrams and Meyers of the world have signed elsewhere, and then you are going to fall backs and fall backs to the fall backs.
So while this signing isn't a big name like Gesell, I trust that Fran got a kid he wanted, and will help this program get to where he wants, and we want it to be (back in the NCAA tourney).
burky247
Well-Known Member
Actually, offers tend to be the best way to judge how good of a get a player is for people who have a limited basketball I.Q. That probably includes most of us when you're talking about analyzing a player's overall ability. I played college ball and feel like I know the game pretty well. But I'm not stupid enough to think I have a better eye for talent than Caff when he has already proven that he knows what to look for.
Heck, it's been proven time and again that lots of these kids don't have half of the offers that they claim to have. Gauging talent by offers is a fool's method.
Fools method is an overstatement. There is more of a correlation between stars and success in basketball than other sports.
It would be more appropriate to just call it a heuristic shortcut like the kinds we use when we don't want to or aren't in a position to do the necessary research to be fully informed.
Another heuristic shortcut is to trust Fran because he has done it before.
Basically as fans we have to rely on such shortcuts.
It would be more appropriate to just call it a heuristic shortcut like the kinds we use when we don't want to or aren't in a position to do the necessary research to be fully informed.
Another heuristic shortcut is to trust Fran because he has done it before.
Basically as fans we have to rely on such shortcuts.
burky247
Well-Known Member
I wasn't talking about stars. I was talking about offers. At least with stars, it's semi-talented people making evaluations based on what they see. What I've seen with offers over the years are kids making misleading statements on who has offered them.
HawkeyeTech
Well-Known Member
BUT... unlike Cyclown fans, liberals are always smarter than you. ;-)
Now don't get your panties in a bunch. I just couldn't resist.
MultipleDundieAwardWinner
Banned
Not to try and pick a scab here, but didn't he also recruit a felon who lasted through 6 seconds of summer school before flaming out?
I'm not saying he can't find talent, but, as an outsider, I can certainly infer that his judgement is not beyond reproach.
tweeterhawk
Well-Known Member
IMHO you are totally mischaracterizing this. Fran used his judgement to recruit Hubbard, evaluate his character and record, and to get him into school. Everyone who met Hubbard, including Barta, also came to the same judgement that Hubbard was worth offering a chance to play basketball for the University of Iowa. That was based on all of the research they had done and, apparently, stellar recommendations from Hubbard's last school. I'm sure everyone also felt Hubbard was an above-average risk -- a risk that he would do something to jeopardize the trust Fran and the university had put in him, a risk that playing in hostile BIG arenas would be too much, a risk that his past would catch up with him.
We don't know exactly what happened. There have been rumors. Whatever it was, shortly after he arrived in Iowa City the university felt the need to sever relations with him. I think that goes more to Hubbard's judgement, not Fran's. Hubbard was a risk that didn't work out. That happens all the time in various aspects of life.
I don't mind that Fran took the risk. Seems where we are and where Fran and Barta want to take the program it is going to be necessary to take some risks.
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1977Hawkeye
Well-Known Member
I guess the way I see it is that if Fran offered Ingram this early, then he must see something he likes in the kid and this is not just a desperation offer to fill a roster spot. If this was a late recruit for the 2011 class, then I would be more concerned.
Besides, it sounds like Ingram will bring us some quickness & athleticism, and could be a late bloomer who was starting to get more high-major interest.
As others have pointed out, we're not in position to get all the 4-5 star players out there other than the occasional Gesell and Woodbury types. If we start winning 20+ games a year again, that might change, but until then, we will have to get some sleepers.
I guess until proven otherwise, I see no reason to doubt Fran's eye for talent based on the way Cartwright and Basabe have panned out.
Besides, it sounds like Ingram will bring us some quickness & athleticism, and could be a late bloomer who was starting to get more high-major interest.
As others have pointed out, we're not in position to get all the 4-5 star players out there other than the occasional Gesell and Woodbury types. If we start winning 20+ games a year again, that might change, but until then, we will have to get some sleepers.
I guess until proven otherwise, I see no reason to doubt Fran's eye for talent based on the way Cartwright and Basabe have panned out.
MultipleDundieAwardWinner
Banned
I agree with you that Iowa will need to take some risks to build their team. In fact, it is kind of humorous that some fans are complaining about this recruit when the reality is their basketball team is a joke and they should be happy that any decent player wants to play for them, IMO. Beggars can be choosers, I guess.
However, to the Hubbard point, if you don't think recruiting a felon and having him INSTANTLY flame out does not reflect on the coach's judgement, you are not living in the real world. It absolutely reflects on the judgement of everyone who signed off on it, the coach more than anyone. Getting Jedi mind-tricked by a 25 year old con is the epitome of bad judgement.
tm3308
Well-Known Member
Being hoodwinked by Hubbard may be a reflection of Fran's judgement in the sense that he misjudged Hubbard's character. But it's not an indictment against Fran's eye for talent, which is the kind of judgement that we're talking about here. If we bring in another guy with a past like Hubbard's, I'll be more concerned, as we've whiffed going down that road before. But I do trust Fran's judgement when it comes to whether or not a kid can play ball.
I agree with this.
