One of Top Recruiting Classes in Kirk Ferentz Era

[NikeHawk21]

Wait, so when Michigan is 1 game back due to a head to head loss they are contending, but you question whether Iowa in 2016 which was 1 game back due to a head to head loss should be considered contending.... interesting.

Wrong again. Michigan was tied with Ohio State whom they were playing. You know controlling your own destiny and all. They owned the tiebreaker over Penn State as they already beat them. They lost and Penn State went to the championship.

 

[GesterHawk]

Wrong again. Michigan was tied with Ohio State whom they were playing. You know controlling your own destiny and all. They owned the tiebreaker over Penn State as they already beat them. They lost and Penn State went to the championship.

You do realize that by losing to OSU it put them one game back after the game? Don't you?

Edit: Totally forgot that was PSU's debacle year. The debacle being that they were snubbed by by the CFB Playoff commitee. That being said, Michigan was still one game back at the end. As was Iowa.

 

[NikeHawk21]

You do realize that by losing to OSU it put them one game back after the game? Don't you?

Edit: Totally forgot that was PSU's debacle year. The debacle being that they were snubbed by by the CFB Playoff commitee. That being said, Michigan was still one game back at the end. As was Iowa.

Okay, apologies I see what your getting at. My point being that Iowa wasn’t in contention at the end of the season. They would have needed UW to drop their last two games and we needed to win our final two to get in.

Michigan on the final game of the season played a 2OT game where if they won they won the division.

 

[deanvogs]

Correct. We had a tough schedule this year and that is why we had a losing record in the B1G. Losing records are not good.

My guess is that if we played in the East as opposed to the west that would be good for roughly one less win per season. That type of difference would make a huge difference in your “wins since” statistic.

If you aren’t willing to admit that Iowa has had historically fairly easy schedules it’s hard for this argument to go anywhere.

You’re parading around a stat that makes it look like Iowa is a Top 20 football program.

- Does finishing on average 3rd in a division of your conference (the lessor division) seem like a top 20 team to you?

- Does going 1-4 in crummy bowl games (sans the Rose) and being outscored by a score of 88-161 sound like a top 20 team to you?

Point being that your statistic doesn’t tell the whole story. I’m not saying that Iowa is terrible, but they are likely an average to slightly about average program. Nothing to be ashamed of but certainly nothing to brag about.

My other point would be that we should be taking advantage of the down west right now. Who knows what will happen to Iowa football if Nebraska figures it out, not to mention Minnesota or even Illinois.

You are the one unwilling to admit anything. The facts are the facts, I have spelled them out. You wanna say, well if this and if that, then Iowa wouldn't be averaging over 8 wins per year over the last 5 years. You wanna pretend that Iowa sucks ass because they are averaging finishing around 3rd place in their division, and I pointed out so is MSU, Penn. St. and Michigan. All you wanna do is say, but, but, but, but.

The facts are the facts, all I am doing is pointing them out. You want a "special consideration" for every fact you don't seem to like. You act like I am making up these stats, but I am not, they are the reality, you just can't seem to come to grips with the facts of where Iowa actually stands compared to it's fellow P5 schools.

 

[NikeHawk21]

You are the one unwilling to admit anything. The facts are the facts, I have spelled them out. You wanna say, well if this and if that, then Iowa wouldn't be averaging over 8 wins per year over the last 5 years. You wanna pretend that Iowa sucks ass because they are averaging finishing around 3rd place in their division, and I pointed out so is MSU, Penn. St. and Michigan. All you wanna do is say, but, but, but, but.

The facts are the facts, all I am doing is pointing them out. You want a "special consideration" for every fact you don't seem to like. You act like I am making up these stats, but I am not, they are the reality, you just can't seem to come to grips with the facts of where Iowa actually stands compared to it's fellow P5 schools.

I’ve never said Iowa sucks ass. I said they are average probably slightly above average. I also said I’ve been happy with the recruiting recently and hoping things are trending up.

We’ve both posted FACTS, I’m not disputing your Wins stats, I’m disputing your interpretation of that stat. I don’t believe it tells the whole story. I’ve laid it out pretty simply as to why (relatively easy schedule, crummy bowls, bad performances in said crummy bowls). If you don’t like it that’s okay, I’m still going to post.

 

[deanvogs]

I’ve never said Iowa sucks ass. I said they are average probably slightly above average. I also said I’ve been happy with the recruiting recently and hoping things are trending up.

We’ve both posted FACTS, I’m not disputing your Wins stats, I’m disputing your interpretation of that stat. I don’t believe it tells the whole story. I’ve laid it out pretty simply as to why (relatively easy schedule, crummy bowls, bad performances in said crummy bowls). If you don’t like it that’s okay, I’m still going to post.

That stats do tell us a story, you just don't like what it says. The simple fact is Iowa is on par or better than every other team in the B1G outside of OSU and Wisconsin (and possibly MSU, but *uck that program) over the last 5 years. Heck that is even using your "average Divisional finish" stuff you prattle on and on about.

 

[NikeHawk21]

That stats do tell us a story, you just don't like what it says. The simple fact is Iowa is on par or better than every other team in the B1G outside of OSU and Wisconsin (and possibly MSU, but *uck that program) over the last 5 years. Heck that is even using your "average Divisional finish" stuff you prattle on and on about.

But you already admitted the B1G West was the much weaker division. Therefore it’s hard to use B1G East division rankings and compare...

How are we on par or better than PSU? They’ve won the B1G, won two bowl games, including a major bowl win this year. No chance we are on par with that. Just another example of why your “wins since” statistic doesn’t tell the whole story.

 

[4thngoal]

Why do we want to compare ourselves to anyone else? That's a messed up way. Because the case could be compared to Alabama or compared to a bottom feeder p5 team. Just saying.
You are basically saying besides OSU and Wisconsin, we are fighting for 3rd in the conference.
Which some numbers could be looked at that way.
He is saying but some numbers show we can't even really say we are 3rd in our division.
That's what I said you can look at numbers all day long, but the truth is the truth. King knows that!

 

[deanvogs]

But you already admitted the B1G West was the much weaker division. Therefore it’s hard to use B1G East division rankings and compare...

How are we on par or better than PSU? They’ve won the B1G, won two bowl games, including a major bowl win this year. No chance we are on par with that. Just another example of why your “wins since” statistic doesn’t tell the whole story.

Not hard at all to use B1G records at all, that is exactly what you are doing. Iowa has as many wins as Penn St. over the last 5 years, it is simply a fact. You might not like it, and Penn St. had a better last 2, but when looking at all 5 Iowa has as many wins and more B1G wins than Penn St. does as well.

In the last 5 years Iowa is only behind Wisconsin, OSU and MSU (and we aren't counting that *ucked up program) in B1G conference wins. If you insist on only comparing them to B1G West teams, Iowa has 27 B1G wins over the last 5 years compared to Nebraska's 22 and Northwestern 22. Yet you insist on saying Iowa is behind all these other teams? That is just stupid, as Iowa has clearly been better than every other B1G West team other than Wisconsin over the last 5 years.

It is what we all want? No, because we are clearly behind Wisconsin by a long ways. Yet to claim we are behind all these other teams just means you are blind and won't actually look at the records and the facts.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Since Nebraska was added to the B1G, conference wins are as follows:

OSU: 50
UW: 45
MSU: 40
Penn State: 37
Michigan: 36
Nebraska: 34
Iowa: 33
NW: 30

 

[4thngoal]

Not hard at all to use B1G records at all, that is exactly what you are doing. Iowa has as many wins as Penn St. over the last 5 years, it is simply a fact. You might not like it, and Penn St. had a better last 2, but when looking at all 5 Iowa has as many wins and more B1G wins than Penn St. does as well.

In the last 5 years Iowa is only behind Wisconsin, OSU and MSU (and we aren't counting that *ucked up program) in B1G conference wins. If you insist on only comparing them to B1G West teams, Iowa has 27 B1G wins over the last 5 years compared to Nebraska's 22 and Northwestern 22. Yet you insist on saying Iowa is behind all these other teams? That is just stupid, as Iowa has clearly been better than every other B1G West team other than Wisconsin over the last 5 years.

It is what we all want? No, because we are clearly behind Wisconsin by a long ways. Yet to claim we are behind all these other teams just means you are blind and won't actually look at the records and the facts.

You want to back up your view? Then one also needs to factor in sos of all the teams.
Because you are arguing that the reason last year for a meh season was for that reason, but maybe (as has been alluded to) that is also the reason we lost in Indy and got hammered by Stanford. Which could then imply the reason we have a better w/l record in said time frame is because over all we had an easier schedule in said time frame.
Nobody is saying we suck or are not headed the right direction. Just that there is a long way to go.

 

[deanvogs]

Since Nebraska was added to the B1G, conference wins are as follows:

OSU: 50
UW: 45
MSU: 40
Penn State: 37
Michigan: 36
Nebraska: 34
Iowa: 33
NW: 30

Cherry picking now? I thought we are talking the last 3-5 years?

Either way as you even show Iowa is clearly on par with the rest of the B1G outside of OSU and Wisconsin. It is Wisconsin clearly at top of the B1G West, and then Iowa, it isn't like we are buried behind Nebraska.

What is your point anyway? All the data that even you supply points out that Iowa is really only behind Wisconsin in the B1G west. I mean are you trying to say that since Nebraska was better 6 and 7 years ago (but Iowa has been better the last 5 years) that we are now behind Nebraska by some wide margin?

 

[4thngoal]

Since Nebraska was added to the B1G, conference wins are as follows:

OSU: 50
UW: 45
MSU: 40
Penn State: 37
Michigan: 36
Nebraska: 34
Iowa: 33
NW: 30

The top 3 avg 45 , the next 3 avg 35. An entire season of losses difference. Wow
Lots of ground to make up.

 

[deanvogs]

You want to back up your view? Then one also needs to factor in sos of all the teams.
Because you are arguing that the reason last year the reason for a meh season was for that reason, but maybe (as has been alluded to) that is also the reason we lost in Indy and got hammered by Stanford. Which could then imply the reason we have a better w/l record in said time frame is because over all we had an easier schedule in said time frame.
Nobody is saying we suck or are not headed the right direction. Just that there is a long way to go.

I have been saying the entire time we are clearly behind OSU and Wisconsin by a wide margin.

My only point in all of this is Iowa is clearly behind Wisconsin and is the 2nd best team in the West over the last 5 years, and has won as many games as Penn St., Michigan, Nebraska, etc. It is what it is, I don't even know what you guys are arguing at this point? Is it that Iowa is behind Wisconsin? Well no shit I have been saying that the entire time.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Not hard at all to use B1G records at all, that is exactly what you are doing. Iowa has as many wins as Penn St. over the last 5 years, it is simply a fact. You might not like it, and Penn St. had a better last 2, but when looking at all 5 Iowa has as many wins and more B1G wins than Penn St. does as well.

In the last 5 years Iowa is only behind Wisconsin, OSU and MSU (and we aren't counting that *ucked up program) in B1G conference wins. If you insist on only comparing them to B1G West teams, Iowa has 27 B1G wins over the last 5 years compared to Nebraska's 22 and Northwestern 22. Yet you insist on saying Iowa is behind all these other teams? That is just stupid, as Iowa has clearly been better than every other B1G West team other than Wisconsin over the last 5 years.

It is what we all want? No, because we are clearly behind Wisconsin by a long ways. Yet to claim we are behind all these other teams just means you are blind and won't actually look at the records and the facts.

Where have I claimed we are behind all these other B1G teams? I said we play in the garbage West and that’s why we have as many wins as we do. That’s why Wisconsin doesn’t get the type of respect they “feel” they deserve on the national level even though they win 10+ games a year. Clear thinking individuals understand that beating up on the B1G West is not anything to write home about.

Your argument basically makes it sound like all wins are equal. I completely disagree with that. If that was true we should actually eliminate ISU from the schedule and play three FCS teams. Go 3-0 in the non conference every year, 5-3 in the garbage West, get pummeled ina garbage bowl, then Boom! Dean is happy we got our 8 wins and we can parade around saying we are a top 20 program.

 

[4thngoal]

I have been saying the entire time we are clearly behind OSU and Wisconsin by a wide margin.

My only point in all of this is Iowa is clearly behind Wisconsin and is the 2nd best team in the West over the last 5 years, and has won as many games as Penn St., Michigan, Nebraska, etc. It is what it is, I don't even know what you guys are arguing at this point? Is it that Iowa is behind Wisconsin? Well no shit I have been saying that the entire time.

I'm not arguing. I see both points of view. I simply said if you want to push for number 1, you first have to clearly be #2. I see the arguments why we are and why we are not.
Seems to me the best thing would be to eliminate all doubt that we have full intentions of being the bullies of the b10 again and that the path to Indy goes through IC.

 

[deanvogs]

Where have I claimed we are behind all these other B1G teams? I said we play in the garbage West and that’s why we have as many wins as we do. That’s why Wisconsin doesn’t get the type of respect they “feel” they deserve on the national level even though they win 10+ games a year. Clear thinking individuals understand that beating up on the B1G West is not anything to write home about.

Your argument basically makes it sound like all wins are equal. I completely disagree with that. If that was true we should actually eliminate ISU from the schedule and play three FCS teams. Go 3-0 in the non conference every year, 5-3 in the garbage West, get pummeled ina garbage bowl, then Boom! Dean is happy we got our 8 wins and we can parade around saying we are a top 20 program.

Now you are even Cherry picking what wins are good? So OSU, MSU and Penn St. beating up on a horrible Rutgers and Maryland over the last 5 years is better than Iowa beating up on Illinois/Purdue?

Iowa is 5-3 vs the B1G West over the last 3 years with wins over OSU and Michigan. It isn't like Iowa is getting dominated by the West recently

 

[deanvogs]

I'm not arguing. I see both points of view. I simply said if you want to push for number 1, you first have to clearly be #2. I see the arguments why we are and why we are not.
Seems to me the best thing would be to eliminate all doubt that we have full intentions of being the bullies of the b10 again and that the path to Indy goes through IC.

I shouldn't have included you in that. I am talking about @NikeHawk21

 

[4thngoal]

Well, something nobody can argue with is that they set out to put some trophies back in the cases and have done that!
Nice.
Still more work to be done, for sure, but it's not all gloom and doom either.
Just like when the reps get easy enough to add some weight, it's a jump, the next step. I for one am proud of what has transpired, but also will not settle.
As they say, if you reach the top of the mountain, find a bigger mountain.

 

[CP87]

Well, something nobody can argue with is that they set out to put some trophies back in the cases and have done that!
Nice.
Still more work to be done, for sure, but it's not all gloom and doom either.
Just like when the reps get easy enough to add some weight, it's a jump, the next step. I for one am proud of what has transpired, but also will not settle.
As they say, if you reach the top of the mountain, find a bigger mountain.

I like your approach of dwelling less on what they have been, and focusing more on what they can become.

When considering what the Ferentz-era Hawkeyes have been, all reasonable fans (and those within this conversation have been reasonable) vary somewhere between, "He's been a slightly above average coach, but I think we could do better" to "He's been a well-above average coach, and it is far from a sure bet that his replacement will be as good."

But no matter how you consider what he has been, what really matters is, "What gives us the best chance to close the gap on and surpass Wisconsin?"

Considering what Iowa has been (2nd tier in the B1G West below Wisc), and the recent changes in the program (e.g. recruiting changes, staff changes), do you think the gap is going to close? If not, it should be time for a new coach.

Personally, I see enough signs to be hopeful over the coming seasons. They have been solid if not spectacular, as Dean has pointed out, with lower-level recruiting and a below-historical-averages offense over the last 6 years. Their recruiting is on the uptick ('18 class is best in 7 seasons; last 3 years are 4th best 3-year stretch of KF era; 10 '16 and '17 recruits on last year's 2-deeps on each side of the ball). They also have a young offensive staff who might have unrealized potential as they are all settling into their roles (the optimistic view), or who maybe are not that good (pessimistic view). I am not sure their ceiling, but they have to be improved this year with more experience.