Miller: How Sports Can Teach

racerhawk

Well-Known Member
Jon, I really appreciate this article, especially this:

"While I still believe intent matters a great deal, words matter, too. If someone doesn’t intend to hurt someone with their words, but those words do genuinely hurt someone, was a wrong committed? Yes. "

My respect for you grew after reading this. I assumed that you would continue with a fairly narrow (limited by the perspective of a white middle aged man from a small town) perspective. I was wrong. Thank you.
 

racerhawk

Well-Known Member
It would be really cool, for an issue like this, for all of us to try to understand others' perspectives, rather than focusing on telling others they are wrong.

Who are we to decide what is or is not hurtful remark here? I'm a middle aged white guy. I'm assuming most of you are as well. We're shouting in the bubble.

I know...it's an internet opinion board, which is mostly focused on firing the entire athletic department right now. I know I'm also shouting into the abyss. But, what the hell. Why not trying to understand folks who differ in opinion here? Hats off to Jon for his article!
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
It would be really cool, for an issue like this, for all of us to try to understand others' perspectives, rather than focusing on telling others they are wrong.

Who are we to decide what is or is not hurtful remark here? I'm a middle aged white guy. I'm assuming most of you are as well. We're shouting in the bubble.

I know...it's an internet opinion board, which is mostly focused on firing the entire athletic department right now. I know I'm also shouting into the abyss. But, what the hell. Why not trying to understand folks who differ in opinion here? Hats off to Jon for his article!

I agree with your first sentence, but you just "liked" a post that was saying I was wrong. Not sure what to think of that.
 

karras

Well-Known Member
Here's a Christian notion: How about we forgive the Dolph's of the world more often than we condemn them.

This might get me in trouble, but hey, I'm a free speech absolutist, which doesn't go over well in 21st century USA.
Jon's a decent soul. If there's a heaven and hell, Jon will be upstairs and I'll be downstairs. Of course I can type that because I don't believe in any type of paradise, whether it be in the natural realm or the supernatural realm.
In a different thread I agreed with Thunderhawk (whose hardcore in his beliefs as am I) that Jesus was probably the most important SJW in history. I think that's true. The world is full of virtue signalers, most of them building a stairway to heaven. I have a problem with that. If you're a virtuous person, your actions will tell the tale. I'm not sure how much Abe Lincoln liked to talk about his regrets, but he was eloquent in defense of liberty, and imo didn't need to tell others he needed to work on himself. Jon isn't Abe but I bet he loves Abe. And that's good enough.
Whatever Jon's life experience he isn't the problem in the world. The fact he beats himself up over being immature when you're expected to be immature (childhood), tells me his moral compass works better than most. Christians are pretty good about working on themselves. It's when they virtue signal thru proselytizing or self-flagellation that I cringe. I haven't witnessed JM proselytizing. But he does wrestle his demons. Most people don't do that. They welcome them in and then spend a lifetime justifying their influence.

Unconscious bias? Everyone has their biases. And having biases doesn't automatically equate to being wrong or cruel. It also doesn't mean you're right or virtuous. It means you're human . . . flawed . . . a sinner. It's a fine line between not wanting to be a sinner and beating yourself up because you know there's no escaping it.
 
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MelroseHawkins

Well-Known Member
Here's a Christian notion: How about we forgive the Dolph's of the world more often than we condemn them.

This might get me in trouble, but hey, I'm a free speech absolutist, which doesn't go over well in 21st century USA.
Jon's a decent soul. If there's a heaven and hell, Jon will be upstairs and I'll be downstairs. Of course I can type that because I don't believe in any type of paradise, whether it be in the natural realm or the supernatural realm.
In a different thread I agreed with Thunderhawk (whose hardcore in his beliefs as am I) that Jesus was probably the most important SJW in history. I think that's true. The world is full of virtue signalers, most of them building a stairway to heaven. I have a problem with that. If you're a virtuous person, your actions will tell the tale. I'm not sure how much Abe Lincoln liked to talk about his regrets, but he was eloquent in defense of liberty, and imo didn't need to tell others he needed to work on himself. Jon isn't Abe but I bet he loves Abe. And that's good enough.
Whatever Jon's life experience he isn't the problem in the world. The fact he beats himself up over being immature when you're expected to be immature (childhood), tells me his moral compass works better than most. Christians are pretty good about working on themselves. It's when they virtue signal thru proselytizing or self-flagellation that I cringe. I haven't witnessed JM proselytizing. But he does wrestle his demons. Most people don't do that. They welcome them in and then spend a lifetime justifying their influence.

Unconscious bias? Everyone has their biases. And having biases doesn't automatically equate to being wrong or cruel. It also doesn't mean you're right or virtuous. It means you're human . . . flawed . . . a sinner. It's a fine line between not wanting to be a sinner and beating yourself up because you know there's no escaping it.


Quit making me Google large words. Seriously, nice read! I like the bold statement. So true.

Yes, both Jon and Rob have been pretty transparent with their audience over the years.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
That's what I was thinking.
The school would have a bigger shit show on their hands if they did run those kids out. It'd be lawsuit city of them violating their rights. It's not nice to be an ignorant tool. But it's not against the law. Putting black stuff on your face isn't a racist act in the way that withholding a job from someone due to race is. It's just not. At the same time sitting for the national anthem isn't against the law either. Is it meant to be offensive? You bet it is. So what's worse? A couple guys possibly with no intent to offend being idiots? Or a whole group intending to offend folks by their actions doing so? Kinda comes down to that to me.
Now if the idiots that painted their faces did it because their racist nut jobs then I have no sympathy for them either. Not that I have any really to begin with.
 

Robowe

Well-Known Member
The school would have a bigger shit show on their hands if they did run those kids out. It'd be lawsuit city of them violating their rights. It's not nice to be an ignorant tool. But it's not against the law. Putting black stuff on your face isn't a racist act in the way that withholding a job from someone due to race is. It's just not. At the same time sitting for the national anthem isn't against the law either. Is it meant to be offensive? You bet it is. So what's worse? A couple guys possibly with no intent to offend being idiots? Or a whole group intending to offend folks by their actions doing so? Kinda comes down to that to me.
Now if the idiots that painted their faces did it because their racist nut jobs then I have no sympathy for them either. Not that I have any really to begin with.

From the linked ESPN article ...

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...7346/vols-students-protest-campus-controversy

The school said Monday it was still deciding how to handle discipline in relation to a Snapchat image showing four people -- two in blackface -- with a caption that read, "We for racial equality boys. Bout to get this free college now that I'm black let's gooooo #blacklivesmatter."
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
The school would have a bigger shit show on their hands if they did run those kids out. It'd be lawsuit city of them violating their rights. It's not nice to be an ignorant tool. But it's not against the law. Putting black stuff on your face isn't a racist act in the way that withholding a job from someone due to race is. It's just not. At the same time sitting for the national anthem isn't against the law either. Is it meant to be offensive? You bet it is. So what's worse? A couple guys possibly with no intent to offend being idiots? Or a whole group intending to offend folks by their actions doing so? Kinda comes down to that to me.
Now if the idiots that painted their faces did it because their racist nut jobs then I have no sympathy for them either. Not that I have any really to begin with.

I'm just glad the pic I took of my dong painted black with the caption "does it look bigger" didn't go viral.
 

karras

Well-Known Member
Blackface? The SJWs provide the Raison D'etre for the idiots in blackface, and vice versa. But how much you wanna bet the SJWs would vote for this fellow SJW given the chance . . .



. . . and scream bloody murder if someone tried to force him from office. Honest principle is the rarest of things. Lust for power is the most common of things.
 
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racerhawk

Well-Known Member
Oh I agree that they used his skin color against him. My point is, is bullying over race worse than finding a different reason to bully someone? When I got picked on bad as a kid, I doubt it hurt less than it hurt Joe, just because skin color wasnt the reason.

If there was actually such a thing as gorilla shampoo, would it have been equally as bad if those kids randomly brought it up in conversation without even realizing a connection to Joe could be made? One of those is kids going out of their way to hurt someone. The other is kids having a conversation without connecting dots that are pretty tough to connect.
I agree with your first sentence, but you just "liked" a post that was saying I was wrong. Not sure what to think of that.


Think harder.
 

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