SamsonHawk515
Well-Known Member
And putting our tail between our legs and playing for OT.
Lunatic Fringe
- Thread starter Cory
- Start date
And putting our tail between our legs and playing for OT.
DuffMan
Well-Known Member
yawn
OUTofTOWNHAWK
Well-Known Member
Tell me about it. They dont call him Captian Vanilla for nothing.
Doublewide
Well-Known Member
HomerChampless
Well-Known Member
Oh, so that's why KF seldom takes chances?
Is that also why Iowa's offense was on a leash last season even with the deficiencies of Iowa's D?
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hogeye
Well-Known Member
KF doesn't take chances because his philosophy dictates a conservative approach. That's why running a weak side WR reverse is about as flashy as it gets. I don't have a problem with this because at the end of the day he focuses on turnover margin and the basic elements that you can't argue against.
As far as the offense last season...you're dogging them for the most prolific passing statistics Iowa has ever seen. Largely because we didn't run the ball well. Which seems odd because we had a 1,000 yard rusher in the worst rushing season perhaps in KF's tenure outside of 2004 when the team as a whole didn't break 1,000 yards.
Look at our W-L record last year and it all revolves around fundamentals. If we win the turnover battle and rush for more than 100 yards we generally win. I think the only exception may be the ISU game.
In every loss we were either held under 100 yards rushing, we lost the turnover battle and in most cases it was both of those things.
NattyBumppo
Well-Known Member
Lunatic Fringe = Best screen saver in history. Took After Dark to a whole new level. Wait—What are we arguing about?
HomerChampless
Well-Known Member
You know, Hogeye, some of those fundamentals revolve around good defense..
Last year, Iowa's defense wasn't good against the run and they've never been good against the pass.
Iowa's pass defense has fundamental problems. Schemes must change because opponent's offenses have changed and Iowa's pass defense has not adapted to that change.
Considering the poor sacking results of the 2010 season with a DL that had 3 pro players, Iowa's sacking ability using traditional schemes will never be good. Also, there's never been such a thing as a coverage sack at Iowa under Ferentz.
Alright, in spite of Ferentz, I said it for Ferentz: The defense can't just execute better for better results.. Using Iowa's pass defense schemes against today's offenses is like playing poker and preventing yourself from having any card higher than a 10.
Ferentz is for fundamentals, I agree with you there, but why does KF put so much stock in a pass defense that isn't fundamentally sound? With a DL that can't produce sacks? With a secondary that doesn't prevent the pass catch?
Hey, here's a conundrum: how does one stay conservative, or not take chances, when forced to blitz because the DL can't get pressure on the QB while the secondary plays prevent?
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hogeye
Well-Known Member
We had good defense last year. We had good offense. Statistically we were about middle of the pack everywhere. Like I said, it pretty much boiled down to having trouble running the ball and committing turnovers being the difference in every loss (except arguably ISU that I can think of off hand).
People try to over complicate things by blaming scheme, pass rushing, blitzing, lack of offensive luster...doesn't matter when you can't do the basics, run the ball well and not turn the ball over. That is consistent regardless of scheme. The same will be true this year.
As far as defensively, we need to be strong up the middle. I don't get overly concerned with passing yards given up. You need to be able to stop the run up the middle first. Eventually, teams that get inside the red zone have the field shrink on them and that's when the battle in the trenches is magnified. You have to win there to score on offense or prevent scores on defense.
We made simple, fundamental errors last season in the games we lost. Committed turnovers, weren't able to move the ball on offense between the tackles and that's the bulk of the season. It's really pretty simple when you boil it down.
People try to over complicate things by blaming scheme, pass rushing, blitzing, lack of offensive luster...doesn't matter when you can't do the basics, run the ball well and not turn the ball over. That is consistent regardless of scheme. The same will be true this year.
As far as defensively, we need to be strong up the middle. I don't get overly concerned with passing yards given up. You need to be able to stop the run up the middle first. Eventually, teams that get inside the red zone have the field shrink on them and that's when the battle in the trenches is magnified. You have to win there to score on offense or prevent scores on defense.
We made simple, fundamental errors last season in the games we lost. Committed turnovers, weren't able to move the ball on offense between the tackles and that's the bulk of the season. It's really pretty simple when you boil it down.
I appreciate all your responses and I guess my main point was to ask why certain parts of the fan base including Jon seem to know the pain is coming but want to get ahead of it and label anyone that questions the program as a lunatic or not a true fan. Proof would be the post earlier from Jon explaining why he didn't want to hear all the talk this fall when the team mightly struggles.
I'm just looking for an explanation of why this program can't seem to even come close to the results that were achieved in the early to mid 2000s. During those years we lost great players and still played a tough style of football and won with new players. What has changed?
I realize that 2009 was very successful but even that year we lost to an inferior team when Stanzi went out and our staff went into a shell. Expectations are a part of life and I think most Iowa fans have reasonable ones. My expectations are that Iowa should only finish with 7 wins once every four years. If you take out the unexplainable losses Iowa has every year then you would see that 8 to 9 wins should be easy to get.
I hope most of you are right and I'm dead wrong. If the next two years end up similar to most of the last 7 years then we will continue to have these talks and they will get more heated.
Thank you to everyone that posted and even those who are being sarcastic as I enjoy those comments as well. Those that rag on everyone and think you are cool because you have thousands of posts, well I won't go there.
I'm just looking for an explanation of why this program can't seem to even come close to the results that were achieved in the early to mid 2000s. During those years we lost great players and still played a tough style of football and won with new players. What has changed?
I realize that 2009 was very successful but even that year we lost to an inferior team when Stanzi went out and our staff went into a shell. Expectations are a part of life and I think most Iowa fans have reasonable ones. My expectations are that Iowa should only finish with 7 wins once every four years. If you take out the unexplainable losses Iowa has every year then you would see that 8 to 9 wins should be easy to get.
I hope most of you are right and I'm dead wrong. If the next two years end up similar to most of the last 7 years then we will continue to have these talks and they will get more heated.
Thank you to everyone that posted and even those who are being sarcastic as I enjoy those comments as well. Those that rag on everyone and think you are cool because you have thousands of posts, well I won't go there.
deanvogs
Well-Known Member
Those glory years from 02-04 saw 31 wins a BCS bowl appearance, and two bowl victories. From 08-10 the team had 28 wins a BCS bowl game victory, and 3 bowl victories total. Not really the total failure you paint it as....
This program is a year away from 9+ wins again. If our down years are 7 wins and bowl appearances, while I don't like it, that is certainly better than missing bowl games altogether as Michigan, Texas, and Florida have all done recently......
hogeye
Well-Known Member
deanvogs, please, facts are useless in emotion-based arguments.
Here's the way this works, Cory. The lunatic fringe are what they are for one simple reason: they fail to acknowledge facts.
There are two sides to the fringe. There is the side that is myopic and fail to see any wrong within the program (plenty of that here). Then there is the side that just can't accept anything less than BCS year in and year out (plenty of those people too).
I've yet to see you really acknowledge anything other than persistent questioning of why we aren't BCS caliber year in and year out. When you're relentless in your approach and never giving credit to counter-arguments and always rejecting anything that doesn't coincide with your view of reality, you get labeled.
So, it's your choice. Ditch the label and have some reasonable arguments and be willing to give concessions when people that don't share your view make valid points, or wear the label with pride and quit playing the victim card. Make your bed, lie in it.
1977Hawkeye
Well-Known Member
I'm a bit late to the party here, but here are my thoughts on KF and the current state of the program:
KF's overall, 13-year body of work is quite good. Four Top 10 finishes, several bowl wins (including a BCS win and one other BCS appearance), 2 Big Ten titles (albeit shared titles, but still).
The problem I'm having right now is that the lion's share of those accolades occurred prior to 2005. And since 2004, this hasn't been the same program that it was the first half of KF's tenure, with the exception of 2009 and the 2nd half of the 2008 season.
Since 2004, our win totals: 7, 6, 6, 9, 11, 8, 7
If you want to look at only the regular season: 7, 6, 6, 8, 10, 7, 7
Like I said, since 2004, this really hasn't been the same program. Regular season, KF has basically been running a 6 or 7 win program, pending the outcome of a bowl game. 2008/09 appear to be outliers at this point. If Iowa Football bounces back in say 2013 and has 2 or 3 more seasons of 8-10+ wins, then that changes things, obviously. So the jury is still out.
For me, KF has done enough to this point, and we are not very far removed from an Orange Bowl win, so he still has my support. But if we keep getting 7-5 seasons or worse for the next 2-3 years, then that could change.
Just because we "expect" to struggle this year doesn't necessarily make it acceptable IMO. It doesn't mean I want KF fired if we go 6-6 this year, I'm not to that point. But KF is still ultimately responsible for the product on the field.
I just think that Iowa can be better than a 7-5 program. Sure, there will be rebuilding years, but if 7-5 is the norm, then I don't think that's acceptable. Especially when our coach is one of the highest paid coaches in the game. The way I see it, 7-5 is only 1 game removed from not even having a winning record. I'm not sure who would be happy with that.
Alot of people don't like comments about KF's salary, but his salary is GOING to be scrutinized when he's one of the highest paid coaches and is going 7-5, like it or not.
Do my feelings put me in the lunatic fringe? I don't know. Maybe. But it's just the way I feel and I can't change that.
KF's overall, 13-year body of work is quite good. Four Top 10 finishes, several bowl wins (including a BCS win and one other BCS appearance), 2 Big Ten titles (albeit shared titles, but still).
The problem I'm having right now is that the lion's share of those accolades occurred prior to 2005. And since 2004, this hasn't been the same program that it was the first half of KF's tenure, with the exception of 2009 and the 2nd half of the 2008 season.
Since 2004, our win totals: 7, 6, 6, 9, 11, 8, 7
If you want to look at only the regular season: 7, 6, 6, 8, 10, 7, 7
Like I said, since 2004, this really hasn't been the same program. Regular season, KF has basically been running a 6 or 7 win program, pending the outcome of a bowl game. 2008/09 appear to be outliers at this point. If Iowa Football bounces back in say 2013 and has 2 or 3 more seasons of 8-10+ wins, then that changes things, obviously. So the jury is still out.
For me, KF has done enough to this point, and we are not very far removed from an Orange Bowl win, so he still has my support. But if we keep getting 7-5 seasons or worse for the next 2-3 years, then that could change.
Just because we "expect" to struggle this year doesn't necessarily make it acceptable IMO. It doesn't mean I want KF fired if we go 6-6 this year, I'm not to that point. But KF is still ultimately responsible for the product on the field.
I just think that Iowa can be better than a 7-5 program. Sure, there will be rebuilding years, but if 7-5 is the norm, then I don't think that's acceptable. Especially when our coach is one of the highest paid coaches in the game. The way I see it, 7-5 is only 1 game removed from not even having a winning record. I'm not sure who would be happy with that.
Alot of people don't like comments about KF's salary, but his salary is GOING to be scrutinized when he's one of the highest paid coaches and is going 7-5, like it or not.
Do my feelings put me in the lunatic fringe? I don't know. Maybe. But it's just the way I feel and I can't change that.
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hogeye
Well-Known Member
1977Hawkeye, I think your criticism is pretty valid. I am not a fan of drawing lines in the sands of time to make points, but I think the way you did it underscores that validity of the concern for the program right now, which I share.
I believe Iowa is capable of 7 win seasons as a minimum. In that time frame our wins are at about 7.2 per season (using regular season numbers). That's basically 4-4 in the B10 and 3 wins outside of that. I think we're under-performing from where we should be...no doubt. I don't believe this deserves firing of KF especially now that we've had staff changes.
As far as salary goes...those people will lose this argument every time because they want to narrowly equate cash to wins, and that doesn't correlate. Here is a rule in life that everyone needs learn...it applies almost universally to situations: cash is king.
Cash will, most the time, dictate action. Right now Iowa has had unprecedented success financially. The AD, who remember inherited Kirk and hasn't had a modicum of success since (unless Fran pans out, which I am mildly optimistic about), isn't going to get bold and run KF out of town while financial numbers are good. Right, wrong or not...it's the reality.
Iowa isn't a recruiting hotbed. We have no real in-state talent to pull from. We have to compete against universities that are giants to us in terms of local talent and donor revenue. We have a coach that if fired today would have more teams knocking on his door than all but a handful of coaches and that is going to dictate spending some cash.
All things considered, I lean toward protecting KF, but I am glad to see the staff changes. I think change was necessary and I am looking forward to seeing what progress can be made the next couple years with recruiting, player development and team development.
I believe Iowa is capable of 7 win seasons as a minimum. In that time frame our wins are at about 7.2 per season (using regular season numbers). That's basically 4-4 in the B10 and 3 wins outside of that. I think we're under-performing from where we should be...no doubt. I don't believe this deserves firing of KF especially now that we've had staff changes.
As far as salary goes...those people will lose this argument every time because they want to narrowly equate cash to wins, and that doesn't correlate. Here is a rule in life that everyone needs learn...it applies almost universally to situations: cash is king.
Cash will, most the time, dictate action. Right now Iowa has had unprecedented success financially. The AD, who remember inherited Kirk and hasn't had a modicum of success since (unless Fran pans out, which I am mildly optimistic about), isn't going to get bold and run KF out of town while financial numbers are good. Right, wrong or not...it's the reality.
Iowa isn't a recruiting hotbed. We have no real in-state talent to pull from. We have to compete against universities that are giants to us in terms of local talent and donor revenue. We have a coach that if fired today would have more teams knocking on his door than all but a handful of coaches and that is going to dictate spending some cash.
All things considered, I lean toward protecting KF, but I am glad to see the staff changes. I think change was necessary and I am looking forward to seeing what progress can be made the next couple years with recruiting, player development and team development.
1977Hawkeye
Well-Known Member
Myself, I view KF's salary as basically an effort to lock him up for the long term in Iowa City after those great years from 2002-04. And ditto for the long extension after the Orange Bowl win. That's what you've got to do to keep a good coach on your sidelines, especially if you aren't one of the top flight programs. So I personally don't get too hung up on KF's salary in terms of him being "overpaid" and all that.. Our AD's did what they thought was necessary to keep a good coach in Iowa City.
Me, I'm an "on the field results" kind of guy. Although they aren't terrible (sure could be a lot worse), I'm not real excited about 7-5 seasons, even if our coach was only making $500k. So from that perspective, KF's salary is irrelevant.
I think right or wrong, it's just one of those things that KF will get heat about though because he IS making so much money, after we have 7-5 seasons. Especially after 2 or 3 in a row.
Agreed on the staff changes - I'm optimistic that it will help give the program a shot in the arm, which I feel is definitely needed. So I'm definitely on board for a few more seasons before I get too restless.
ThunderHawk
Well-Known Member
I think IOWA v.2012 is gonna be brutally bad. QB who can't handle pressure, a rebuilding O line, a high school D line, barely serviceable linebackers and giant question marks in the D backfield. Also, a #1 receiver who needs stickum.
Shall I even mention the running back situation? I think I shall not.
We are gonna suck @$$, so tailgate extra hard.
Is that fringe?
Shall I even mention the running back situation? I think I shall not.
We are gonna suck @$$, so tailgate extra hard.
Is that fringe?
