Leistikow: What was Barta thinking?

[Adam]

Oh I agree on The Hair. I just don't get how some are so quick to forget the Hubbard ordeal.

What ordeal? The kid made a mistake as a juvenile. Fran needed instant impact so he took a chance with an athlete. The kid made it all of 2 months in IC before word of his mouth got back to Fran and Fran had him on a 1 strike plan apparently because he was gone before the sun went down. Hard to assign much blame on Fran for that IMO.

I'm sure someone can correct my vaguely recollected timeline.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Well...Gutless Gary has created his own stench around Iowa athletics. His record makes Alfraud look like John Wooden.

Absolutely. You always want your coaches locked up for four years if possible (Nebby just extended Miles) so recruiting competition can't use that against you. But Barta's extension, not to mention the timing, was preposterous. Fran isn't Tom Izzo. And BTW Tim Miles extension was only one year and he had a better year than Fran did.

You could also make an argument that Fran didn't deserve any extension regardless of the unwritten four year rule and I would have no trouble with that.

EDIT: Greg Gard just got extended two more years. He's now signed through I believe 2022.

 

[IHawk94]

That's a piss poor excuse.

I don't know how that's an excuse? Everyone who's responded to this post says it's an "excuse". How is that an excuse? There's nothing false about the statement. The point of the post was to point out that the comparison between Painter and McCaffery is pretty fair if you consider everything else other than a W/L record and NCAA appearances. Think about Gene Keady and Todd Lickliter and how it's not too far off for Fran coming from TL and Painter coming of GK. I'm a Fran supporter, yes, however I do think he needs to find a way to make a run March sometime, and he definitely needs to make the NCAA within the year. Now I will give him 2 more years personally, but to each their own on that topic. I'm not using that post as an excuse for Fran, but to prove a point to the other poster.

 

[IHawk94]

Absolutely. You always want your coaches locked up for four years if possible (Nebby just extended Miles) so recruiting competition can't use that against you. But Barta's extension, not to mention the timing, was preposterous. Fran isn't Tom Izzo. And BTW Tim Miles extension was only one year and he had a better year than Fran did.

You could also make an argument that Fran didn't deserve any extension regardless of the unwritten four year rule and I would have no trouble with that.

The extension was signed before the season, albeit I don't understand why they didn't announce it at that time because the time it was announced was not the greatest time. If the extension was signed before the season I have no problem with that. Fran was coming off 7 seasons straight in the postseason, 3 out of the last 4 in the NCAA (blown call @ Minnesota and made shot @ Nebraska) away from being in 4 straight years. The timing of the release was not good, and is the part I don't understand. Note that I said IF the extension was signed before the season is in fact true.

 

[IHawk94]

Yeah, and 40% of those 20 years have been Fran. I am not gonna give him a pass for sucking because he is a part of the sucking.

Oh, you can absolutely compare Fran to painter, but you might as well compare him to coach K while you are at it.

Fran isn’t where he should be a decade in. He isn’t gonna be.

Jeez, even cyclone football fans don’t put up with this crap. They ran McCarney off after not only turning it around but giving them the best few years in their history.

Coach K and Fran literally have nothing in common except that they're maybe around the same age? and that they're basketball coaches.

Nevermind the fact that all the neigh sayers on this board expect Iowa to be in the sweet 16 every year and Fran won the first NCAA game in 14 years when they beat Temple in '14.

Oh cyclone football huh....is that why Paul Rhoads coached there for 7 years with a 36% winning percentage. That's laughable. I will take Fran and his 8 years where he's only missed a postseason tournament 2 years.

 

[theboat]

Coach K and Fran literally have nothing in common except that they're maybe around the same age? and that they're basketball coaches.

Nevermind the fact that all the neigh sayers on this board expect Iowa to be in the sweet 16 every year and Fran won the first NCAA game in 14 years when they beat Temple in '14.

Oh cyclone football huh....is that why Paul Rhoads coached there for 7 years with a 36% winning percentage. That's laughable. I will take Fran and his 8 years where he's only missed a postseason tournament 2 years.

At least you are honest. Mediocre is ok with some people. You are one of those people. Just don’t try to convince others that mediocre is somehow not mediocre because of Lickliter.

You are right, Paul Rhodes sucked. But he had bigger wins than Fran and that bought him a couple years but even ISU fans didn’t want to put up with sucking too long and they don’t know anything different.

Another interesting fact. ISU football winning % over the last 40 years. 37% Paul Rhodes. 37%
Iowa basketball over last 40 years. 61%
Fran. 57%

But keep telling yourself that Iowa can’t do better.

 

[IHawk94]

At least you are honest. Mediocre is ok with some people. You are one of those people. Just don’t try to convince others that mediocre is somehow not mediocre because of Lickliter.

You are right, Paul Rhodes sucked. But he had bigger wins than Fran and that bought him a couple years but even ISU fans didn’t want to put up with sucking too long and they don’t know anything different.

I don't think there's a world that would ever satisfy a fan like you. Fran is better than Alford, Fran is better than Lickliter. I will take progression. With the classes that he has coming in it will be better. I am not trying to convince you of anything, I would just like some actual facts behind your unrealistic opinions, that's all. You and the people in your anti-Fran posse can never really provide those but I digress and will hold my breath.

It's also laughable that you would say something as foolish as Paul Rhoades had bigger wins than Fran has ever had at Iowa. So laughable that i'm not sure it's worth my breath or comment. Is your profile picture Graceland? Are you fan? If so, I'd say that defines mediocrity all in a picture.

 

[theboat]

I don't think there's a world that would ever satisfy a fan like you. Fran is better than Alford, Fran is better than Lickliter. I will take progression. With the classes that he has coming in it will be better. I am not trying to convince you of anything, I would just like some actual facts behind your unrealistic opinions, that's all. You and the people in your anti-Fran posse can never really provide those but I digress and will hold my breath.

It's also laughable that you would say something as foolish as Paul Rhoades had bigger wins than Fran has ever had at Iowa. So laughable that i'm not sure it's worth my breath or comment. Is your profile picture Graceland? Are you fan? If so, I'd say that defines mediocrity all in a picture.

See updated facts above.
As long as they are above terrible then that is ok with you. I hope you don’t have kids. Bring home a C, “yeah but dad it coulda been an F.” You’re right son, let’s celebrate.

Yeah. Who needs national championships when you can have moral victories over Michigan.

 

[IHawk94]

See updated facts above.
As long as they are above terrible then that is ok with you. I hope you don’t have kids. Bring home a C, “yeah but dad it coulda been an F.” You’re right son, let’s celebrate.

Yeah. Who needs national championships when you can have moral victories over Michigan.

Or as long as they're making postseason tournaments which they have done 6 out of 8 years. 3, should've been 4 NCAA's in a row before this season then yes I will be good. The next step is to win more NCAA tournament games and I'm confident that can happen with the classes coming, if it doesn't then yeah let's bring someone who can. Not ok with mediocrity just patient to find it. In your world you can hire and fire year after year till someone satisfies you, but the requirements you have are Coach K level.

I'm not sure if you're talking about a national championship for iowa state or Graceland? But Graceland had NEVER made an NAIA national tournament until this year, and we all know Iowa State has never won any national championships. Fran has more wins than this moral victory in a down year that you speak of, but why would we think about any other year than the one this year?

 

[Northside Hawk]

Or as long as they're making postseason tournaments which they have done 6 out of 8 years. 3, should've been 4 NCAA's in a row before this season then yes I will be good. The next step is to win more NCAA tournament games and I'm confident that can happen with the classes coming, if it doesn't then yeah let's bring someone who can. Not ok with mediocrity just patient to find it. In your world you can hire and fire year after year till someone satisfies you, but the requirements you have are Coach K level.

I'm not sure if you're talking about a national championship for iowa state or Graceland? But Graceland had NEVER made an NAIA national tournament until this year, and we all know Iowa State has never won any national championships. Fran has more wins than this moral victory in a down year that you speak of, but why would we think about any other year than the one this year?

With all due respect, six of eight in this day and age isn't much above mediorcre, especially with only one deep run (2013 NIT.) 100 teams make the NCAA and NIT alone, or is it 108. He has proven you don't have to win sixty percent of your games to be a regular postseason participant. He couldn't have done that in other eras. If Fran puts up those numbers in the mid seventies when Sky King was playing and Lute was compiling 18 win seasons he may not have gone to any tournament. Maybe an NIT in his best year.

This isn't a put down of your comment, just putting things in perspective. You still have to get in it to have any chance of advancing. Fran is doing that. And random things can happen in single elimination of anything onve you're there. Let's see what happens next year. Fran is writing some checks with his mouth that his ass better be able to cash.

 

[IHawk94]

Lute was putting up 18 win seasons? That seems like a familiar win number for Fran. I understand the times have changed, but I think that's my point is that times have changed and Iowa basketball has changed as well. Basketball has changed, and Iowa is no longer a powerhouse program like it was in the days of short shorts and what not. Everyone wants to bask in the 70's like we're this huge basketball program, but we're not. Don't get me wrong Fran in my book has two more seasons and if there's no progress from the past 8 seasons then yes I say find someone new, but I don't think we'll need to have that conversation because I think he's going to.

 

[lightning1]

I don't know how that's an excuse? Everyone who's responded to this post says it's an "excuse". How is that an excuse? There's nothing false about the statement. The point of the post was to point out that the comparison between Painter and McCaffery is pretty fair if you consider everything else other than a W/L record and NCAA appearances. Think about Gene Keady and Todd Lickliter and how it's not too far off for Fran coming from TL and Painter coming of GK. I'm a Fran supporter, yes, however I do think he needs to find a way to make a run March sometime, and he definitely needs to make the NCAA within the year. Now I will give him 2 more years personally, but to each their own on that topic. I'm not using that post as an excuse for Fran, but to prove a point to the other poster.

Prior success/failure has nothing to do with current or future success. Anyone that insists otherwise, is making bullshit excuses. Hire the right coach = success. Hire the wrong coach = failure. Or some level of mediocrity.

 

[IHawk94]

Prior success/failure has nothing to do with current or future success. Anyone that insists otherwise, is making bullshit excuses. Hire the right coach = success. Hire the wrong coach = failure. Or some level of mediocrity.

So if you go take over for Coach K at Duke compared to you taking over as Coach of say Depaul that shouldn't hamper any future success or failure no matter how good or bad of a coach you are? You should still win as many championships at Depaul as you would at Duke or UNC? Expectations are the same no matter what school you're at? P6 or not? Believe it or not....recruits have been alive for more than that 1 year you were hired so they remember when what schools were good and when those schools were bad. It is a recruiting tool for history. Why does Indiana still get good recruits? I'm sure if you asked recruits they'd say that the history was definitely a factor. You have to get recruits to come to your school to be a good school. So my comparison comes from that standpoint, and I will still stand by that.

 

[tksirius]

What ordeal? The kid made a mistake as a juvenile. Fran needed instant impact so he took a chance with an athlete. The kid made it all of 2 months in IC before word of his mouth got back to Fran and Fran had him on a 1 strike plan apparently because he was gone before the sun went down. Hard to assign much blame on Fran for that IMO.

I'm sure someone can correct my vaguely recollected timeline.

From what I remember, Fran seemed bewildered by Hubbard's decision to leave Iowa.

 

[DDThompson]

Stop using the NIT as the normal standard of success. It isn’t. So please. Just stop.

There are some 25 or so non-power6 conferences that get automatic bids to MM.
42 at large slots. I don’t think it’s asking too much that Iowa should be in the top 42 in the country 65-70% of the time.

* * *

If my kids were capable of B grades then I didn’t berate them if they didn’t reach my expectations of A grade.

Iowa is a B level program in basketball. It’s not a blue blood A grade level program. So I don’t rail on it when it doesn’t get an A.

This season was an F.
It better not happen again.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Lute was putting up 18 win seasons? That seems like a familiar win number for Fran. I understand the times have changed, but I think that's my point is that times have changed and Iowa basketball has changed as well. Basketball has changed, and Iowa is no longer a powerhouse program like it was in the days of short shorts and what not. Everyone wants to bask in the 70's like we're this huge basketball program, but we're not. Don't get me wrong Fran in my book has two more seasons and if there's no progress from the past 8 seasons then yes I say find someone new, but I don't think we'll need to have that conversation because I think he's going to.

Lute put up those types of seasons in the mid seventies (19 in 1976, 20 in 1977 to be exact), but not for the balance of his Iowa career. And that wasn't good enough for the postseason then. I IRC, 32 teams made the NCAA and 16 made the NIT. If you finished third or lower in a power conference, you could forget postseason as most NIT bids went to smaller schools. Lute stepped it up from 1979-83 winning around 21 games most years. If Lute continued around 19 wins and continued missing the postseason I'm sure his seat would have gotten hot in a hurry. Once again credit Fran for getting there and giving his team the opportunity for the anything can happen nature of the tournament. But keep it in proper perspective because with nearly 30% of the nation's teams going to the NCAAA or NIT six in eight is not the accomplishment it once was.

Hell yes I'd like to see Iowa become the powerhouse it was at times from the seventies through the nineties. Those mid to late eighties teams provided some of the most exciting sports memories in Iowa history.

 

[lightning1]

So if you go take over for Coach K at Duke compared to you taking over as Coach of say Depaul that shouldn't hamper any future success or failure no matter how good or bad of a coach you are? You should still win as many championships at Depaul as you would at Duke or UNC? Expectations are the same no matter what school you're at? P6 or not? Believe it or not....recruits have been alive for more than that 1 year you were hired so they remember when what schools were good and when those schools were bad. It is a recruiting tool for history. Why does Indiana still get good recruits? I'm sure if you asked recruits they'd say that the history was definitely a factor. You have to get recruits to come to your school to be a good school. So my comparison comes from that standpoint, and I will still stand by that.

No difference . It just takes a good coach a little longer at DePaul. You're telling me that if Coach K quit Duke and went to DePaul, he wouldn't turn that program into a winner within 4 years? You're saying it's Duke, not Coach K?
Look at UNC-CHeat basketball before and after Brad Doherty's tenure. Coaching makes the difference.

 

[Northside Hawk]

No difference . It just takes a good coach a little longer at DePaul. You're telling me that if Coach K quit Duke and went to DePaul, he wouldn't turn that program into a winner within 4 years? You're saying it's Duke, not Coach K?
Look at UNC-CHeat basketball before and after Brad Doherty's tenure. Coaching makes the difference.

Arizona, pre Lute, won exactly three games in the 1982-83 season and I'm assuming fan and student interest was in the toilet.

They improved by eight wins the moment he stepped foot on campus. And we're a national power the year after that and for the next quarter century. Just to name one of many examples.

Look at the effect Tarkanian had at UNLV, to name another. Check out the rebels Pre-tark and Post-tark.

John Thompson at Georgetown, another example.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Speaking of North Carolina, how many non conference teams have gone into the Dean Dome and won twice.

I'll bet it's a very short list, and Iowa is on it.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

All valid points. I don't think pointing out where Iowa and Purdue were before both coaches got here are excuses however. That's more a less the point I was making. Fran's "body of work" does deserve the 1 down year as you pointed out. I also would point out that Alford came off Tom Davis, who is arguably one of our best coaches throughout the years. He didn't have to build his career from the ground up so to speak, whereas Fran has.

I was still fairly young when Alford was coach at Iowa, so don't remember exact stats and such, but Fran has brought teams into the top 10 of rankings which is something I'm not sure I have ever remembered growing up. Granted, as you said they have stumbled after hitting that stride, but I wouldn't say other than Devyn Marble's senior year did they just crash and burn. They've recovered or ended strong, until eventually running into brick walls in the second rounds of the NCAA. One thing I wish i did remember better about the Alford years was how much development took place in his players, whereas with Fran you can see that players under his coaching have made some players make significant developments and others just developments but most players have come out of Iowa better than they came in.

The way I look at tournament wins is NCAA>B10. You could flip that stat on it's head and say well at least Fran has a couple NCAA wins. Wins Fran should have as his teams were better than their opponents. That's also something Alford can't say, he didn't win NCAA games that he should've won. I know that's nit picky, but I value Fran's wins and seasons more than Alford's. Now, I entirely expect more from Fran especially with some good recruiting classes coming in. Fran may have better facilities, as you pointed out, but coaches who were coaching when Alford was coaching had the same exact facilities. It's not like Fran has significant facilities compared to other universities around the states. I think compared to other coaches, Fran and Alford had similar instances where the facilities were pretty average with the rest of the country.

I'm not sure alot of that is entirely accurate. Iowa basketball had to have been perceived better nationally when Alford was hired compared to Fran, but I don't think Alford inherited as good of a situation as you think. Davis didn't recruit squat during his lame duck season. Look at the 99-00 basketball roster.. Other than Dean Oliver and Jacob Jaacks, what did that team have? Rob Griffin was a good scorer but thought he was an Alford recruit. Just saying, Alford didn't have a very talented roster to work with, either, when he was hired. Probably still better than what Fran inherited though, granted.

As for facilities, didn't Alford teams have to share the field house with other programs' teams for practice time, like the women's volleyball team, etc? Could be wrong on that, but thought I read that. It seemed that at the time, the general consensus was that our facilities were considered about the worst in the conference (not merely average) because the team didn't even have its own dedicated facility. Seemed that was always a sore spot with Alford iirc. That has since been rectified.

I'll give Fran the nod in postseason games, big ten tournament excluded. Alford had little results in the NCAA and NIT. Alford lost once in the NCAA as the higher seed, in 3 trips. NWST as we all know. Other than that, the results were about as you'd expect based on seed. I recall a few first NIT losses. Fran has been better to this point, but other than that run to the NIT finals, no real deep runs, either.

I recall two of Fran's teams tanking in a big way. Marble's senior year as you pointed out, but you're forgetting Uthoff's senior year. That team was #3 nationally and projected as a 1 seed in January and tumbled to a 7 seed in pretty short order. Conversely, Alford had at least 3 teams I can think of that were top 10-15 pretty far into the season before tanking.. 2000-01, 2001-02, 2004-05 come to mind, if you look them up. 2000-01 was right after Recker's injury.. Both coaches have had more than one team melt down. Again, pretty similar.

Alford's handling of the Pierce situation is far worse than anyone can say about Fran and Hubbard imo.

Make no mistake, I was no Alford fan and wasn't sorry to see him go, and I'm not saying "Fire Fran now" either, but Fran's tenure is a lot more similar to Alford than I think you believe. Just my opinion.