1977Hawkeye
Well-Known Member
I love that stat.
Iowa also has beaten Kansas at least 3 times: 1988, and then back to back years in 1998 and 1999. Granted, not all the best Kansas teams we've seen, but still pretty cool.
Leistikow: What was Barta thinking?
- Thread starter tweeterhawk
- Start date
I love that stat.
Iowa also has beaten Kansas at least 3 times: 1988, and then back to back years in 1998 and 1999. Granted, not all the best Kansas teams we've seen, but still pretty cool.
tksirius
HN's Love Doctor
Yeah, one of those was when Gesell went all Steph Curry from the outside and Shawn Kemp on the inside. Good thing we never saw that from Gesell again. #Enigma
Northside Hawk
Well-Known Member
That 1988 Kansas team went on to win the Natty, but they looked anything like a champion when Iowa rolled them decisively in the Maui Classic. Marvin Branch was the name of the Kansas player who tried to make an already chippy game chippier by giving Michael Reaves a good piece of his elbow on a high post ballscreen. If you knew Michael, that was the equivalent of stepping on a fire ant mound with bare feet. Reaves, like former NBA star Calvin Murphy, had a solid ameteur boxing background. When he zeroed in Branch wanted no piece of Michael Reaves. By the time Bill Jones caught up to him and calmed him down, Reaves had practically chased Branch out of the building.I love that stat.
Iowa also has beaten Kansas at least 3 times: 1988, and then back to back years in 1998 and 1999. Granted, not all the best Kansas teams we've seen, but still pretty cool.
I think that's what I'm trying to say, maybe I didn't communicate that well enough. If coach K took over for Depaul of whatever the worst p6 school is he would probably bring them to at least relevance, not sure we're talking championships instantly. But like you said, it's going to take more time, which was my original post I thought? I took Gene Keady to Matt Painter and how Painter had Purdue relevant decently early in his tenure, whereas Iowa came from Lickliter to McCaffery. I don't know that I would say Iowa has been irrelevant either in Fran's tenure. No deep long runs, I would like that stat to change, but they've been ranked top 10 in a few seasons and went to 3 consecutive (should've been 4) NCAA's, but it has taken Fran longer than Painter is my point. Maybe I didn't communicate that as well as I thought I had, but time is a definite factor in relevance. I think Jeff Capel will be a coach to keep an eye on at Pittsburgh. Many believe he is a very good coach, and Pittsburgh is almost probably in the same gutter as Iowa in the Lickliter years and to see how he gets that program to relevance or keeps sinking.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
I can guarantee you it wouldn't take 8 years. It wouldn't.
Wisconsin basketball average 5.5 wins a season over the 40 year period before Dick Bennet took over.
Dick Bennet had them in the Final Four in year 5. Bo Ryan took it from there.
Wisconsin was a basketball cess pool for 100 years. A great coach can turn a program around in 8 years or less.
Fran is not a great coach. He's an average coach at best.
Has it taken Fran 8 years to become relevant? If that's the case then I have no idea what your definition of relevance is..
I do realize a good coach will be able to turn a program being as I aspire to be a coach someday. The programs help but the coaches are what puts those teams on the map. A coach is why a player goes to that school, the school just helps that a little bit. I never considered Fran a great coach, although I wouldn't claim he's an average at best coach either. I think that if you stop and look at more than one unlived up to expectations year and we see major progress from the team now and contributions from the freshman, especially CM and JW, we could see a tournament team next year, and you never know what can happen in March.
Northside Hawk
Well-Known Member
Bennett's son sure kicked away a golden opportunity to duplicate his father's accomplishment,did he not? Flameout in spectacular fashion.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
3 NCAA tournaments in 8 years is not relevant, IMO. Not with 2nd round land slide losses as the zenith. So...YES, we do have vastly different opinions of what the term means as it pertains to College basketball.
If we see progress from next season's team but no NCAA tournament, that's 3 years in a row. Years 7, 8 and soon to be 9 of his coaching tenure. That's the definition of mediocre at best. Fran used the term "body of work". Look at it! It's not good. It's mediocre.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
He'll get more chances because he wins 30+ games and has ACC titles.
Northside Hawk
Well-Known Member
In addition to the basketball team, the entire athletic department was pretty much on life support in the mid to late eighties. Non revenue sports were glorified intramural programs and most of the 35,000 that did go to Camp Randall were more interested in the band than the football game.
Madison, like many college towns, was an out post for social protest during the Vietnam era. I think that Madison, a major University town in a state capital, was one of the last cities in the Midwest to put that stigma behind them. The conflicts between the state government and the University, in my theory, eventually made their way to athletics. They were hiring the cheapest coaches they could finf. By the early 1990's baseball and six other sports were temporarily cut at Wisconsin.
People may never understand the true magnitude of what Barry took on and reversed. Forget the football team, the future of the entire athletic department may have been at stake.
3 NCAA tournaments that could have easily been 4...in a row if not for a blown call at Minny and a big shot at Nebby which would make it 1 year without an NCAA appearance, but I digress. 2nd round landslides to the eventual national champions, and a final four team. It should've been closer than those games were I will give you that. Constantly competing with big time programs for big time recruits I feel holds some value, although not as much as I'd like because we've only landed a few. I also think that stat could change in the '19, '20 classes. Top half B10 finishes more often than not....even last year.
trj
Well-Known Member
That Gesell was clutch at the free throw line, finished at the basket when he got into the lane. Too bad it was an aberration. I will always point to that game as to what Gesell could have been. No one’s fault he didn’t turn out to be that guy.....just frustrating.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
Ifs and buts don't count. Almost and really close don't count.
Like the actual games - losing recruiting battles to better programs DONT COUNT! There is no participation trophy for finishing 2nd or 3rd for a players services. It holds ZERO value.
You're right there are no participation trophies, But I don't know that it serves 0 value to be finishing "close" on big recruits. Big recruits are friends, and they talk and so others know who's good at recruiting and who will show the post love.
I also feel like this is a standstill argument because you will never give up the Fran is mediocore at best argument and right now I don't see him as a mediocore coach until proven otherwise. He does have a pretty good coaching history, and I trust with this program. He had a down year, and he's not going anywhere at least until after the '18-'19 at the earliest, so I'm going to sit back and relax and enjoy the basketball program I've enjoyed ever since I can remember. The team will be better and I know there's nothing that will change your mind in that direction and that's okay. To each their own I suppose at this point in the year. Until I see more than 1 down year from Fran McCaffery I will support him. Call me whatever name that makes me, but I'm excited for this year.
Northside Hawk
Well-Known Member
I think the he team will be better. But it's still a long way from even the Davis era and that eventually wasn't good enough for Bowlsby. The key is, will it be better in the close games where toughness, intelligence and getting one key stop will be the difference. Like, uh, about half your conference games most years. You know, the ones that Fran has a proven track record of winning 30% of the time. You say he is not mediocre until proven otherwise. His six of eight has proven nothing more than the exact opposite. Six of eight has never been more watered down than it is today and I've made that point. I've made the point that yes you have to get in to catch the randomness but Fran has come up short there too, taking advantage exactly once. After eight years I will rate him slightly above mediorcre at best. And yes I will enjoy watching this year. If nothing else our freshman and sophomore gained experience and hopefully had their pride severely bruised.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
8 year totals at Iowa:
Over all = 151-120. (.558).
Big Ten Conference = 67-75. (.472).
Exclude his first two seasons and the last season you have a 65% winning percentage overall. I won't take the time to go into specifics for big ten record, overall was easier to find. But has only finished lower than 6th place 3 seasons out of 8 in the B10.
Looking at an overall record can be pretty misleading because if you give Fran that 3 year grace period that you're allowing Coach K at Depaul in our little dreamed up situation. He has Iowa winning 25 games in year 3 and being snubbed of the NCAA tournament, later on finishing 2nd in the NIT.
Easily could have been two, as the year with the play in game Iowa was obviously one of the last teams in.
I think Fran's okay. 3 tourneys in 8 years IMO is the absolute bare minimum for a coach not to be fired.
Northside Hawk
Well-Known Member
Exclude the curve near the First Depository bank and it was a great day for a parade in Dallas too. Everyone knows what Fran was working with his first year or two. On the day of the NIT Championship Fran's career path closely resembled Jim Calhoun's, who won the NIT in his third (1988) season at UConn.
Shall we continue on and compare Fran four through eight with Calhoun's corresponding four through eight at UConn?
EDIT: Calhoun won the NIT in his second season at UConn. He would soon embark on, this is not a typo, a stretch where he went 173-34.
Shall we continue on and compare Fran four through eight with Calhoun's corresponding four through eight at UConn?
EDIT: Calhoun won the NIT in his second season at UConn. He would soon embark on, this is not a typo, a stretch where he went 173-34.
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