Kirk Ferentz vs Hayden Fry

[Niemo]

Kirk wins bowl game.
Ties Fry win record at Iowa. Players carry hm off field. Announces he's retiring. (Did anyone else think he looked emotional as the NE game ended?)

Bob Stoops comes out of retirement to take iowa job. (He'll come out for someone)

Call it my Christmas wish!


Is it really that far out of reach?

 

[HomerChampless]

Kirk wins bowl game.
Ties Fry win record at Iowa. Players carry hm off field. Announces he's retiring. (Did anyone else think he looked emotional as the NE game ended?)

Bob Stoops comes out of retirement to take iowa job. (He'll come out for someone)

Call it my Christmas wish!


Is it really that far out of reach?

Ah..let's start with Iowa wins bowl game....

 

[SCHawkeye2]

Fry - 'Scratch where it itches.'
KF - Execution.

Fry schemes according to the circumstances of a game.
KF schemes regardless of the circumstances of the game.

This is what makes me so frustrated with KF.
Hayden would not keep trying to establish the run if the opponent stacked the box to stop the run.
He would go to the pass and take advantage of the mismatch in the secondary.
KF is unwilling or unable to change schemes regardless of the situation.

Not saying Hayden always succeeded, but at least he tried something different. KF seems to prefer losing to trying something different.

 

[uihawk82]

I meant that, when you factor in how much more Iowa has in terms of resources, facilities and fan support and the higher academic standards that NwU has to overcome, the "better program" starts to tip in NwU's favor because they are doing almost exactly as well as Iowa over the last 8 years.

I got it now. Even before Fitz got there they had coaches like Barnett and the guy who died who got players to commit to the weight room and strive for excellence. If you watched jNW in the '70s to mid '90s you saw the players did not look strong etc. That has changed and the jNW culture changed. The last 20 years or so jNW has been slinging the ball around and not trying to totally play smash mouth offense. And Fitz brought a much tougher defensive outlook to the team. Fitz's schemes have a way of making other team's offenses have problems and he takes chances on defense. Fitz knows he needs to run blitz etc to try to get negative plays and his style has leveled the playing field for them.

 

[SCHawkeye2]

Kirk wins bowl game.
Ties Fry win record at Iowa. Players carry hm off field. Announces he's retiring. (Did anyone else think he looked emotional as the NE game ended?)

Bob Stoops comes out of retirement to take iowa job. (He'll come out for someone)

Call it my Christmas wish!


Is it really that far out of reach?

Ties Fry win record at Iowa. Players carry hm off field. Announces he's retiring. (Did anyone else think he looked emotional as the NE game ended?)

Announces that his son will be the next head coach (based on his meteoric rise through the coaching ranks and stunning success as OL coach and Off Coordinator)

 

[Niemo]

Ties Fry win record at Iowa. Players carry hm off field. Announces he's retiring. (Did anyone else think he looked emotional as the NE game ended?)

Announces that his son will be the next head coach (based on his meteoric rise through the coaching ranks and stunning success as OL coach and Off Coordinator)

So don't want that. Can't imagine big donors going for that.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

I'll go with Hayden as being the better coach and program director all day long.

I grew up with the Hawks in the 60s and 70s. There wasn't a bigger doormat in the country than Iowa.

The program was dead. A laughing stock. We got scheduled for a lot of homecomings.

Hayden not only changed all that on the field, he laid the foundation for KF off the field...in terms of big time donor support, renovations, recruiting, University attitude towards the program, brand marketing, etc.

I'm in no way demeaning what KF has done. For the most part, he's kept us competitive and relevant.

Hayden got us there.

This. All. Day. Long.

It's great to say KF has been good for the program, because he has. But JHF absolutely produced the blueprints, got the permits, laid the foundation AND did the damn ribbon-cutting. KF has continued the stability JHF established. But make no mistake, without JHF, we're on our 12th or 14th coach since the end of the Bob Commings Era.

 

[HawkGold]

This. All. Day. Long.

It's great to say KF has been good for the program, because he has. But JHF absolutely produced the blueprints, got the permits, laid the foundation AND did the damn ribbon-cutting. KF has continued the stability JHF established. But make no mistake, without JHF, we're on our 12th or 14th coach since the end of the Bob Commings Era.

No, the fact is the A Dept was committed to winning otherwise they'd have kept Commings. Fry did what he did with a number of Commings players. Sort of like ISU this year.

Commins 5-6 Iowa in 77 lost at M, lost at UCLA, Lost to OSU, lost to a good MSU team. The guy had only 1 bad game against AZ that year. All those losses were respectable.

In 78, Iowa lost to a good ISU team. Lost to #8 Michigan. Lost at OSU Gave 1 of only 4 losses to Wisconsin. Lost to #17 Purdue. Lost at AZ. Really close loss to MN

The IU loss and a blowout loss to MSU at the end probably sealed it.

Fry lost to AZ 5-3 in 1980 his 2nd rebuild year.

One could make a point that Commins wasn't given enough time. One hell of a schedule trying to do a rebuild.

Fry was a master marketer. He got people to believe. Therein lies the biggest diff between HF and KF. Marketing.

Look at Commins in 76. OOC games with Syracuse (W), PSU (W) and at USC (L). In the Big, OSU was #10 and an L.

Put KF into Commins OOC and what would his record be?

 

[ChosenChildren]

Ferentz was on Hayden's staff during the glory years and deserves some of the credit.....

 

[JoeyLabasForPresident]

Kirk wins bowl game.
Ties Fry win record at Iowa. Players carry hm off field. Announces he's retiring. (Did anyone else think he looked emotional as the NE game ended?)

Bob Stoops comes out of retirement to take iowa job. (He'll come out for someone)

Call it my Christmas wish!


Is it really that far out of reach?

The real reason for Stoops "retirement"

...

 

[HawkInATX]

No, the fact is the A Dept was committed to winning otherwise they'd have kept Commings. Fry did what he did with a number of Commings players. Sort of like ISU this year.

Commins 5-6 Iowa in 77 lost at M, lost at UCLA, Lost to OSU, lost to a good MSU team. The guy had only 1 bad game against AZ that year. All those losses were respectable.

In 78, Iowa lost to a good ISU team. Lost to #8 Michigan. Lost at OSU Gave 1 of only 4 losses to Wisconsin. Lost to #17 Purdue. Lost at AZ. Really close loss to MN

The IU loss and a blowout loss to MSU at the end probably sealed it.

Fry lost to AZ 5-3 in 1980 his 2nd rebuild year.

One could make a point that Commins wasn't given enough time. One hell of a schedule trying to do a rebuild.

Fry was a master marketer. He got people to believe. Therein lies the biggest diff between HF and KF. Marketing.

Look at Commins in 76. OOC games with Syracuse (W), PSU (W) and at USC (L). In the Big, OSU was #10 and an L.

Put KF into Commins OOC and what would his record be?

I thought I'd seen it all... but here we are, not just bashing KF for not being Hayden Fry, but ALSO suggesting he'd be worse than Commings?

 

[ChosenChildren]

I thought I'd seen it all... but here we are, not just bashing KF for not being Hayden Fry, but ALSO suggesting he'd be worse than Commings?

I sat through the Commings disaster. Decent defense and a pretty tenacious recruiter, but the worst offense in Iowa history. We were running the Wing T, for gosh sakes. There would be games in which we wouldn't complete more than 3 or 4 passes. We only won about 30% of our games during his tenure. Ferentz and Fry have won 60% ON AVERAGE, with numerous seasons at 8 wins or above. No comparison, frankly

 

[HawkGold]

I thought I'd seen it all... but here we are, not just bashing KF for not being Hayden Fry, but ALSO suggesting he'd be worse than Commings?

No, but in furthering the discussion, it is an interesting analogy (looking at it). Commins did some impressive stuff, but in the end couldn't beat the "equal" teams. Also, a good chunk of HF's early teams including the Rose Bowl were recruited by Commins. KF after being here quite a long time has put together back to back seasons himself that were much different that KF if you gave KF the OOC schedule.

The guy probably deserved more time, sort of like Rhodes in some ways. In the end, I was very thankful for HF though.

It's easy to bash Commins without looking at the schedule and results carefully. He had some big wins and terrible losses. He did not have a cupcake schedule at all. The guy was incredibly enthusiastic and pro Iowa for sure.

So as to keep things from being twisted. I am not saying KF is as bad as BC. Nor am I saying HF shouldn't have been hired. I am saying in the analysis, there are some comparisons if the OOC schedules are compared. Fry with a lesser OOC schedule his first year easily would have been bowl eligible in today's world. Commins would have had a couple of bowl games.

 

[HawkInATX]

No, but in furthering the discussion, it is an interesting analogy (looking at it). Commins did some impressive stuff, but in the end couldn't beat the "equal" teams. Also, a good chunk of HF's early teams including the Rose Bowl were recruited by Commins. KF after being here quite a long time has put together back to back seasons himself that were much different that KF if you gave KF the OOC schedule.

The guy probably deserved more time, sort of like Rhodes in some ways. In the end, I was very thankful for HF though.

It's easy to bash Commins without looking at the schedule and results carefully. He had some big wins and terrible losses. He did not have a cupcake schedule at all. The guy was incredibly enthusiastic and pro Iowa for sure.

So as to keep things from being twisted. I am not saying KF is as bad as BC. Nor am I saying HF shouldn't have been hired. I am saying in the analysis, there are some comparisons if the OOC schedules are compared. Fry with a lesser OOC schedule his first year easily would have been bowl eligible in today's world. Commins would have had a couple of bowl games.

The problem is that when you have coaches that have as long of a tenure as Fry and Ferentz, it's really difficult to compare schedules. For a good chunk of his tenure, Fry was in a system where you could have a tie as a result, meaning that you couldn't really play those close games the same way. The trend has also been to play more games as time goes on, so that's a whole different animal. Then there's the different eras (CFP, BCS, Polls, Split polls, etc.). On top of that, recruiting has become completely different with the population and demographic shift to the Southeast and away from the NE and upper Midwest. In the same time frame that saw NC, SC, FL, GA, AL, MS, TN grow and diversify in population, Iowa has stayed at approximately the same population and still has pretty much the same demographic composition.

I've got nothing against Fry or Commings, and admittedly I transplanted to Iowa in 2007 and was only there for 4 years of KF. But I'm just not sure that it's really possible to compare coaches to each other when they were around as long as they were because of the evolution of all aspects of the game. I also don't know that, even if we could find some way to make everything else ceteris paribus (all else being equal), it would really accomplish much of anything because we're not in a situation in which we have a clearly incompetent or inferior product. The constant back and forth regarding KF vs. HF is evidence of the fact that we're really quibbling over essentially similar levels of success. So in that regard, I don't even know that I have a point about whether KF or HF were better, I think both were excellent for Iowa in general.

 

[Joshbrown]

^^^ You really think the coaches produced equally entertaining games/teams?

Fry's teams were more fun to watch. Sports are entertainment. Kirk's product is inferior to Fry's at a higher cost. Intelligent people get that.

 

[HawkInATX]

^^^ You really think the coaches produced equally entertaining games/teams?

Fry's teams were more fun to watch. Sports are entertainment. Kirk's product is inferior to Fry's at a higher cost. Intelligent people get that.

Then quit watching if you're not entertained. But don't pretend to know a damned thing about me personally or intellectually.

 

[DDThompson]

Kirk wins bowl game.
Ties Fry win record at Iowa. Players carry hm off field. Announces he's retiring. (Did anyone else think he looked emotional as the NE game ended?)

Bob Stoops comes out of retirement to take iowa job. (He'll come out for someone)

Call it my Christmas wish!


Is it really that far out of reach?

The carrying Kirk off the field?

Yeah, that’s a reach.

 

[SCHawkeye2]

In Haydens 20 years, Iowa played 46 Power 5 opponents in the non-conf schedule.
KF has payed 31 Power % opponents in 19 years.

Hayden had a tougher schedule.

 

[Joshbrown]

This is what makes me so frustrated with KF.
Hayden would not keep trying to establish the run if the opponent stacked the box to stop the run.
He would go to the pass and take advantage of the mismatch in the secondary.
KF is unwilling or unable to change schemes regardless of the situation.

Not saying Hayden always succeeded, but at least he tried something different. KF seems to prefer losing to trying something different.

Correct.
When you have a contract that is unbreakable, your incentive to innovate/adjust is negated.
That's why I take the position I do.
A new coach with a contract that incentivizes wins and punishes failure. The way it works now 7 wins is like winning a national championship with the Barta contract. Gary finishes near last in the directors cup for a reason. He sucks.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

No, the fact is the A Dept was committed to winning otherwise they'd have kept Commings. Fry did what he did with a number of Commings players. Sort of like ISU this year.

Commins 5-6 Iowa in 77 lost at M, lost at UCLA, Lost to OSU, lost to a good MSU team. The guy had only 1 bad game against AZ that year. All those losses were respectable.

In 78, Iowa lost to a good ISU team. Lost to #8 Michigan. Lost at OSU Gave 1 of only 4 losses to Wisconsin. Lost to #17 Purdue. Lost at AZ. Really close loss to MN

The IU loss and a blowout loss to MSU at the end probably sealed it.

Fry lost to AZ 5-3 in 1980 his 2nd rebuild year.

One could make a point that Commins wasn't given enough time. One hell of a schedule trying to do a rebuild.

Fry was a master marketer. He got people to believe. Therein lies the biggest diff between HF and KF. Marketing.

Look at Commins in 76. OOC games with Syracuse (W), PSU (W) and at USC (L). In the Big, OSU was #10 and an L.

Put KF into Commins OOC and what would his record be?

Clueless. Commings was a good guy, but he wasn't close to getting it done. The 5-6 record in 1977 wasn't really 5-6, it was 4-7, but UCLA later forfeited for using an ineligible player. He wasn't given enough time? He was 17-38, which was really 16-39, with a 2-9 record in 1978.

<<Fry lost to AZ 5-3 in 1980 his 2nd rebuild year>>

I know, I was at the game. So? What does it have to do with this discussion?

Oh, I get it...<Put KF into Commins OOC and what would his record be?>>

How would "Commins" have fared in any of the bowl games KF has been in? Oh, wait, he never came close to even MAKING a damn bowl game.

Dude, the trolling is bordering on absurd...

But...if you ARE going to go "absurd", at least spell Commings correctly. And if you ARE going to copy/paste from Wiki, read the whole damn article. Read some actual books. There's been plenty written on the subject of Bob Commings.

<<Fry was a master marketer. He got people to believe. Therein lies the biggest diff between HF and KF. Marketing>>

Really? So we've done this whole damn thread just to have some troll reduce it to "marketing". Good Lord.