Innocent question regarding the future of Women’s Basketball

[vegashawki]

I know people have strong feelings both ways regarding this topic so please keep it clean so they don’t remove this thread I want others opinions on this. I was kind of shocked to hear her reply during her press conference after talking about how great it is to see women basketball gain popularity.

Staley stated transgenders should be able to play in women’s basketball at the college level. I don’t like the idea of losing the purity of women’s sport to biological males. I researched that the WNBA has a male joining the league now.

Can we make a third sex division, seriously. Men, women and transgender divisions? Or let’s get rid of different sex sports all together… you have only basketball.

 

[Bordone]

This issue is like the issue of abortion. Not that it's a hot button issue but that the wrong people are the ones that get to make meaningful decisions about it.

The people participating in the competition should be the ones making this decision, not people on message boards not old people sitting on committees.

 

[PCHawk]

No need for a 3rd sex division. Supposedly there aren't more than two sexes, there's more than two genders. Once that's established, just say sports are separated by sex, not gender. Problem solved.

 

[ajdwhs87]

Man if it had just happened sooner maybe we could have had a Josie Ogundele dominating like a Zach Edey of women's hoops. We ended up with Josh Ogundele who just didn't pan out to that much.

 

[sioux34]

All it would take to put this issue to rest would be the coach at East Overshoe State to recruit 5 trans players, and win a natty with that lineup. This argument would be over.

 

[PCHawk]

All it would take to put this issue to rest would be the coach at East Overshoe State to recruit 5 trans players, and win a natty with that lineup. This argument would be over.

I'm not sure about that. The media would just talk about how inspirational and courageous the team was and anyone who argued would be a bigot and cancelled.

 

[eyekwah]

Folks use some logic. Sex and Gender are two different things. Sex designation is based on biology. Gender is based on human behavior. When a child is born there is scientific method of determining sex, only the child's sex is on the birth certificate; for now.

 

[CP87]

No need for a 3rd sex division. Supposedly there aren't more than two sexes, there's more than two genders. Once that's established, just say sports are separated by sex, not gender. Problem solved.

Sex is actually more complicated than many make it out to be: it can be distinguished chromosomally (XX vs. XY), in terms of gonads (ovaries vs. testes), in terms of external genitalia (vagina vs. penis), and in terms of secondary sex characteristics (hair distribution, muscle and fat patterning, breast development, etc.). For the vast majority of people, all of these things line up together. But for somewhere around 1 in 5,000 individuals, there is a mismatch between chromosomes, gonads, genitalia, and secondary characteristics. These individuals used to be called intersex, but the more common term these days is DSD (disorders of sexual development). Although this is rare, at the typical rate it occurs, there are likely 60,000 people in our country to whom this applies. It is more common in some areas of the world (higher incidence in sub-Saharan Africa).

DSD has been a big issue in international sport of awhile now. Track & Field allows DSD women with testes to compete in certain events as long as they have medically suppressed their testosterone levels to typical female levels. It's tough, though, because if you go through puberty as a male (edit: I should say if you go through puberty with elevated testosterone), there are advantages that you gain (larger heart, greater stature, etc.) that don't go away when you suppress hormone levels. It is a true dilemma, as a woman athlete finding out she is DSD is devastating, and essentially stripping a huge aspect of her life away is awful. But at the same time, allowing her to compete creates real issues of fairness and protecting the female class in athletics.

Because of accumulating evidence of retained advantage in DSD females who have gone through puberty with elevated levels of testosterone, many international sports are moving toward disallowing DSD athletes from female competition.

For more information on the medical aspect of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6976999/

If you want to hear about someone's personal experience with this: https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_what_i_ve_learned_from_having_balls

 

[CP87]

Transgender sometimes coincides with DSD, but they are different issues. In some ways, DSD is more straightforward. If someone is DSD, it is very easy to determine that: genotyping and MRIs can easily figure it out.

But gender dysphoria lies in the brain, not the sex chromosomes or the gonads. And the brain is so complex, we still really don't know what the heck is going on up there. This is the reason people with depression were told to just stop being sad for 1,000s of years, and really only in the last couple of decades or so has our society actually accepted that depression is a real thing. And even then, we had to be able to detect some changes in neurotransmitter-signalling before it was accepted.

I have a suspicion that sometime down the road we are going to be looking at our disbelief of gender dysphoria much like we now look back at our former disbelief of people with depression. Individuals with gender dysphoria face such discrimination in our society (and it is growing, at the moment), that to think someone is going to make something like that up is pretty crazy. And no one is going to go through all that is involved in gender transition just to gain an advantage in sports.

It is really hard for me to understand what gender dysphoria is about, and for awhile I was skeptical it was a real thing. But I have been able to get to know a few people with gender dysphoria, and that helps you figure out that they are just people, like you and I, trying to live out their authentic lives. I don't need to understand it to believe them when they explain what they are experiencing.

Transgender women competing in sport is even more problematic than DSD, because from a phenotypic standpoint (frame, heart, muscle, hematocrit, etc.), they have the advantages of men if they have gone through puberty. Even with a transition and subsequent hormone therapy, a significant portion of those advantages are retained. I don't think it is fair for transgender women to be competing when there is money and fame on the line. I do think in high school sports I would lean more towards inclusion and lowering barriers for trans girls, but I think you can very reasonably take the other side of that argument. It is a very tricky situation, as I stated above, there is no way to satisfy both inclusion and fairness.

 

[CP87]

This podcast tackles the transgender in sport issue pretty frequently, and they do a nice job with the science of the whole deal:

The Lia Thomas Controversy: Anger in the Age of Trans Gender Sport

Transgender athlete Lia Thomas recently won the 500-yard title at the US National College Swimming (NCAA) Championships triggering an uproar and suggesting that her participation may have wide-ranging implications for women's sport. At the recent MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in Boston...

play.acast.com

 

[sioux34]

I'm not sure about that. The media would just talk about how inspirational and courageous the team was and anyone who argued would be a bigot and cancelled.

I dont think they could cancel the self evident truth that trans women could be the end of cis women in competitive sports.

 

[ajdwhs87]

It is funny. Women have fought men for their fair share for a long time. Now men are turning into women and taking their stuff away and so far it has been getting a big thumbs up.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Folks use some logic. Sex and Gender are two different things. Sex designation is based on biology. Gender is based on human behavior. When a child is born there is scientific method of determining sex, only the child's sex is on the birth certificate; for now.

Pretty sure this was PCHawks's point above and he stated the same.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Sex is actually more complicated than many make it out to be: it can be distinguished chromosomally (XX vs. XY), in terms of gonads (ovaries vs. testes), in terms of external genitalia (vagina vs. penis), and in terms of secondary sex characteristics (hair distribution, muscle and fat patterning, breast development, etc.). For the vast majority of people, all of these things line up together. But for somewhere around 1 in 5,000 individuals, there is a mismatch between chromosomes, gonads, genitalia, and secondary characteristics. These individuals used to be called intersex, but the more common term these days is DSD (disorders of sexual development). Although this is rare, at the typical rate it occurs, there are likely 60,000 people in our country to whom this applies. It is more common in some areas of the world (higher incidence in sub-Saharan Africa).

DSD has been a big issue in international sport of awhile now. Track & Field allows DSD women with testes to compete in certain events as long as they have medically suppressed their testosterone levels to typical female levels. It's tough, though, because if you go through puberty as a male (edit: I should say if you go through puberty with elevated testosterone), there are advantages that you gain (larger heart, greater stature, etc.) that don't go away when you suppress hormone levels. It is a true dilemma, as a woman athlete finding out she is DSD is devastating, and essentially stripping a huge aspect of her life away is awful. But at the same time, allowing her to compete creates real issues of fairness and protecting the female class in athletics.

Because of accumulating evidence of retained advantage in DSD females who have gone through puberty with elevated levels of testosterone, many international sports are moving toward disallowing DSD athletes from female competition.

For more information on the medical aspect of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6976999/

If you want to hear about someone's personal experience with this: https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_what_i_ve_learned_from_having_balls

Yes, the evolution of changing what we call things. Years ago it was hermaphrodite, than as you mention that turned into intersex and now DSD.

Same thing about how we have changed how we described the disabled over time. Cripped - handicapped - disabled - physically disabled - physically challenged (funny, like one isn't trying) - Now differently-abled.

We can keep changing the name to soften the blow, but it doesn't change what individuals deal with or who they are. It gets silly.

 

[CP87]

It is funny. Women have fought men for their fair share for a long time. Now men are turning into women and taking their stuff away and so far it has been getting a big thumbs up.

But let's be honest, it is incredibly rare and mostly a bunch of people getting outraged about a hypothetical.

The odds that someone born a male would become a transgender woman AND be an incredible athlete are very low. Lia Thomas was a good enough athlete to win an NCAA national championship in swimming, and there is a powerlifter from New Zealand who is near the top of her sport. I think there was a transgender woman soccer player in the last world cup, and there likely a handful of others I do not know about. But it is not like this is happening left and right.

No one is going to switch genders for an athletic advantage. But with increasing acceptance of this issue, it will become more prevalent, and sporting bodies need to have plans in place. Some of the strongest opponents to inclusion of trans women in high level sport are high level female competitors, which makes sense. But some of the strongest supporters are also women athletes.

To grapple with this, people are going to have to avoid oversimplification and hyperbole.

 

[Grady]

Transgender sometimes coincides with DSD, but they are different issues. In some ways, DSD is more straightforward. If someone is DSD, it is very easy to determine that: genotyping and MRIs can easily figure it out.

But gender dysphoria lies in the brain, not the sex chromosomes or the gonads. And the brain is so complex, we still really don't know what the heck is going on up there. This is the reason people with depression were told to just stop being sad for 1,000s of years, and really only in the last couple of decades or so has our society actually accepted that depression is a real thing. And even then, we had to be able to detect some changes in neurotransmitter-signalling before it was accepted.

I have a suspicion that sometime down the road we are going to be looking at our disbelief of gender dysphoria much like we now look back at our former disbelief of people with depression. Individuals with gender dysphoria face such discrimination in our society (and it is growing, at the moment), that to think someone is going to make something like that up is pretty crazy. And no one is going to go through all that is involved in gender transition just to gain an advantage in sports.

It is really hard for me to understand what gender dysphoria is about, and for awhile I was skeptical it was a real thing. But I have been able to get to know a few people with gender dysphoria, and that helps you figure out that they are just people, like you and I, trying to live out their authentic lives. I don't need to understand it to believe them when they explain what they are experiencing.

Transgender women competing in sport is even more problematic than DSD, because from a phenotypic standpoint (frame, heart, muscle, hematocrit, etc.), they have the advantages of men if they have gone through puberty. Even with a transition and subsequent hormone therapy, a significant portion of those advantages are retained. I don't think it is fair for transgender women to be competing when there is money and fame on the line. I do think in high school sports I would lean more towards inclusion and lowering barriers for trans girls, but I think you can very reasonably take the other side of that argument. It is a very tricky situation, as I stated above, there is no way to satisfy both inclusion and fairness.

Really appreciate your two posts. It's not as simple as folks on both sides of this issue make it out, and you clarify why. Just excellent posts.

 

[CP87]

Yes, the evolution of changing what we call things. Years ago it was hermaphrodite, than as you mention that turned into intersex and now DSD.

Same thing about how we have changed how we described the disabled over time. Cripped - handicapped - disabled - physically disabled - physically challenged (funny, like one isn't trying) - Now differently-abled.

We can keep changing the name to soften the blow, but it doesn't change what individuals deal with or who they are. It gets silly.

You are referring to the case of someone being born with ambiguous genitalia, which is just one potential way DSD can manifest. There are over 50 known ways in which an individual can end up with a mismatch between chromosomes, gonads, and phenotypic sex. In many cases, like the Emily Quinn video above (or several notable cases with female athletes), an individual just assumes they are a regular girl like all of their friends, and only when they fail to have their period does this issue get noticed. Imagine how tough it is to learn this, or if you are an athlete, to learn this and then learn you may no longer be able to compete in the sport you love?

 

[MelroseHawkins]

You are referring to the case of someone being born with ambiguous genitalia, which is just one potential way DSD can manifest. There are over 50 known ways in which an individual can end up with a mismatch between chromosomes, gonads, and phenotypic sex. In many cases, like the Emily Quinn video above (or several notable cases with female athletes), an individual just assumes they are a regular girl like all of their friends, and only when they fail to have their period does this issue get noticed. Imagine how tough it is to learn this, or if you are an athlete, to learn this and then learn you may no longer be able to compete in the sport you love?

You are correct. If often happens around that age 12-13 when the young girl doesn't have her onset of menses and they start investigating. I recall a case during my work many years ago when a young girl ended up having an exploratory surgery on her pelvis and it was found she had gonads that were not descended.

There are probably many individuals who are dealing with some level of this. It may not be to this level, but we have hormone differences, ambiguous genitalia, hirsutism, etc.. It is rare, but I think may be more common than some believe as it gets suppressed by individuals and their families. I feel for these individuals.

 

[ajdwhs87]

"The National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics announced a policy Monday that all but bans transgender athletes from competing in women's sports at its 241 mostly small colleges across the country.

The NAIA Council of Presidents approved the policy in a 20-0 vote at its annual convention in Kansas City, Missouri. The NAIA, which oversees some 83,000 athletes competing in more than 25 sports, is believed to be the first college sports organization to take such a step.

According to the transgender participation policy, all athletes may participate in NAIA-sponsored male sports but only athletes whose biological sex assigned at birth is female and have not begun hormone therapy will be allowed participate in women’s sports."

It applies to all sports except competitive cheer and competitive dance.

 

[Fryowa]

"The National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics announced a policy Monday that all but bans transgender athletes from competing in women's sports at its 241 mostly small colleges across the country.

The NAIA Council of Presidents approved the policy in a 20-0 vote at its annual convention in Kansas City, Missouri. The NAIA, which oversees some 83,000 athletes competing in more than 25 sports, is believed to be the first college sports organization to take such a step.

According to the transgender participation policy, all athletes may participate in NAIA-sponsored male sports but only athletes whose biological sex assigned at birth is female and have not begun hormone therapy will be allowed participate in women’s sports."

It applies to all sports except competitive cheer and competitive dance.

Lol.

You do know that out of the 240 NAIA schools, 221 of them are private Christian schools, right? I'm not debating the merits of religion or lack thereof, but NAIA is basically church league for college kids who can't make a D3 team, and they're going to decide based on that...not by interpreting science.

Pretty misleading to mention NAIA and not also mention that it's a religious institution.