Innocent question regarding the future of Women’s Basketball

[dagdaj]

It applies to all sports except competitive cheer and competitive dance.

Cheerleading gets all the good carve outs.
I mean, it's only a sport when someone says it isn't a sport.
If you agree (rightfully so) that it's a sport, they'll then tell you it's not a sport.

What a gig.

Also, how can there be 35 different "nationals"? It seems like I hear about some team going to "nationals" every other weekend. How does that whole thing work?

I want in on that action. I hear it's exceptionally lucrative for the companies behind the curtain.

 

[ajdwhs87]

Lol.

You do know that out of the 240 NAIA schools, 221 of them are private Christian schools, right? I'm not debating the merits of religion or lack thereof, but NAIA is basically church league for college kids who can't make a D3 team, and they're going to decide based on that...not by interpreting science.

Pretty misleading to mention NAIA and not also mention that it's a religious institution.

Hey just reporting the NAIA is the first to address it. Misleading to who? It has no bearing on the NCAA or other Athletic Associations nor did I say that it did. In fact I said nothing at all. Quoted their policy on the issue is all cause it happened to drop today. I made no statement myself at all and the only way it would be misleading is if what I quoted was not accurate.

 

[Fryowa]

Hey just reporting the NAIA is the first to address it. Misleading to who? It has no bearing on the NCAA or other Athletic Associations nor did I say that it did. In fact I said nothing at all. Quoted their policy on the issue is all cause it happened to drop today. I made no statement myself at all and the only way it would be misleading is if what I quoted was not accurate.

Not saying you made a statement at all, but you left out a relevant piece of the story. The debate on gender identification/assignment in sports has (largely) been based on science so far. There's plenty of disagreement on what that science shows and/or proves, but it's been on scientific grounds nonetheless. It's been a debate on how to classify humans and how to decide on what scientific/physical/philiosophical criteria or "rules" we'll use (or should use).

The NAIA is making this decision based on being a religious organization; to assume anything else is absurd. Saying they've made a policy decision without mentioning that they're doing so from a biblical standpoint and not from the same context as other organizations doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[ajdwhs87]

Not saying you made a statement at all, but you left out a relevant piece of the story. The debate on gender identification/assignment in sports has (largely) been based on science so far. There's plenty of disagreement on what that science shows and/or proves, but it's been on scientific grounds nonetheless. It's been a debate on how to classify humans and how to decide on what scientific/physical/philiosophical criteria or "rules" we'll use (or should use).

The NAIA is making this decision based on being a religious organization; to assume anything else is absurd. Saying they've made a policy decision without mentioning that they're doing so from a biblical standpoint and not from the same context as other organizations doesn't tell the whole story.

Didn't mention any context. Don't care actually. Religion, science, the parent who want this to protect thier daughter's opportunities. Not misleading. NAIA right in the first sentence. If one doesn't know what they are about look 'em up and find out. You need to do this for all the stocks or funds you want to invest in, the politicians you might vote for, schools you might send you kids to etc. I don't have to explain the NAIA and if I did how do you know I would be telling the truth or what my agenda is. Personal responsibility to know who is who and what is what.

 

[PCHawk]

But let's be honest, it is incredibly rare and mostly a bunch of people getting outraged about a hypothetical.

The odds that someone born a male would become a transgender woman AND be an incredible athlete are very low. Lia Thomas was a good enough athlete to win an NCAA national championship in swimming, and there is a powerlifter from New Zealand who is near the top of her sport. I think there was a transgender woman soccer player in the last world cup, and there likely a handful of others I do not know about. But it is not like this is happening left and right.

No one is going to switch genders for an athletic advantage. But with increasing acceptance of this issue, it will become more prevalent, and sporting bodies need to have plans in place. Some of the strongest opponents to inclusion of trans women in high level sport are high level female competitors, which makes sense. But some of the strongest supporters are also women athletes.

To grapple with this, people are going to have to avoid oversimplification and hyperbole.

I also appreciate your posts. A couple things I don't necessarily agree with. One is you saying it's rare and no one will switch genders for athletic advantage. If you say there's no reason to care about it because it's rare, it's the same thing as saying you should only care when it affects you. I guess that's fine if it never ends up affecting you. But it's probably not fine if your daughter loses a spot to a guy saying he's a girl. And people find different ways to cheat all the time. Of course there are people out there that would cheat in that manner. Getting to see some naked chicks would be a bonus.

The other thing is you saying it's not as simple as people make it out to be. While I agree that some instances might need special rulings, the overall premise of should guys be able to complete with girls if they think they are a girl is incredibly simple. The answer is no.

The truth is, there is no way to know what its like to feel like a boy or feel like a girl. You can only know what it's like to feel like you. Even tho I'm a boy, how could I possibly know what it feels like to be a boy? What does being a boy even feel like? The best anyone could do is line up with stereotypes humans have created on boys and girls. Just because I like blue doesn't mean I feel like a boy. If I liked pink or liked dresses or liked the idea of having a vag to get penatrated, it wouldn't make me a girl. It would mean I like things that stereotypically are things girls like. It can also mean I wish I was a girl. But you can't compete with girls just because you wish you were one.

 

[Fryowa]

But you can't compete with girls just because you wish you were one.

Or even if you truly do believe you are one. There has to be a line drawn somewhere and it’s going to piss somebody of no matter what.

 

[PCHawk]

Or even if you truly do believe you are one. There has to be a line drawn somewhere and it’s going to piss somebody of no matter what.

The people who truly believe they are one need help in the exact same way an anorexic person needs help for thinking they're fat. How irresponsible would it be for loved ones of an anorexic to praise them for starving themselves? Telling them how courageous they are for not eating dinner? Imagine everyone agreeing with an 5'6" 80 pound girl that they're fat. We shouldn't treat anorexics like shit. But we sure as hell shouldn't praise them and tell them they're right.

 

[CP87]

The people who truly believe they are one need help in the exact same way an anorexic person needs help for thinking they're fat. How irresponsible would it be for loved ones of an anorexic to praise them for starving themselves? Telling them how courageous they are for not eating dinner? Imagine everyone agreeing with an 5'6" 80 pound girl that they're fat. We shouldn't treat anorexics like shit. But we sure as hell shouldn't praise them and tell them they're right.

That seems like a false equivalency, to me. Anorexia is acquired from societal pressures, and has known and potentially deadly health consequences. Gender dysphoria is likely present from birth, and there are no health consequences associated with it. Research consistently shows that health outcomes for these individuals are more positive with access to gender-affirming care, and trying to dissuade them of their feelings (conversion therapy) has negative outcomes. That is why all major medical organizations are generally in favor of gender-affirming care for these individuals and reject conversion therapy.

 

[Fryowa]

The people who truly believe they are one need help in the exact same way an anorexic person needs help for thinking they're fat. How irresponsible would it be for loved ones of an anorexic to praise them for starving themselves? Telling them how courageous they are for not eating dinner? Imagine everyone agreeing with an 5'6" 80 pound girl that they're fat. We shouldn't treat anorexics like shit. But we sure as hell shouldn't praise them and tell them they're right.

I think there’s some difference with that example, though. Being anorexic can kill you pretty easily. Thinking you’re a certain gender isn’t really harmful per se, it just causes inconveniences like how to classify people in sports. Some people might think it’s life and death, but it ain’t.

In other words, anorexia if not stopped leads to permanent physical and mental injury or even death, whereas gender [insert current en vogue term for gender disagreement here] is just something that makes certain other people mad because you want to play in women’s’ sports leagues and use different bathrooms. I don’t think gender issues are something people should care about “fixing” in others

 

[Will C]

Best discussion ever. "Don't stop". That's what she said.

 

[CP87]

"The National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics announced a policy Monday that all but bans transgender athletes from competing in women's sports at its 241 mostly small colleges across the country.

The NAIA Council of Presidents approved the policy in a 20-0 vote at its annual convention in Kansas City, Missouri. The NAIA, which oversees some 83,000 athletes competing in more than 25 sports, is believed to be the first college sports organization to take such a step.

According to the transgender participation policy, all athletes may participate in NAIA-sponsored male sports but only athletes whose biological sex assigned at birth is female and have not begun hormone therapy will be allowed participate in women’s sports."

It applies to all sports except competitive cheer and competitive dance.

Thanks for sharing that update.

 

[CP87]

Lol.

You do know that out of the 240 NAIA schools, 221 of them are private Christian schools, right? I'm not debating the merits of religion or lack thereof, but NAIA is basically church league for college kids who can't make a D3 team, and they're going to decide based on that...not by interpreting science.

Pretty misleading to mention NAIA and not also mention that it's a religious institution.

I did not know that about NAIA...still relevant information to this discussion, and I appreciate the context you added

 

[PCHawk]

That seems like a false equivalency, to me. Anorexia is acquired from societal pressures, and has known and potentially deadly health consequences. Gender dysphoria is likely present from birth, and there are no health consequences associated with it. Research consistently shows that health outcomes for these individuals are more positive with access to gender-affirming care, and trying to dissuade them of their feelings (conversion therapy) has negative outcomes. That is why all major medical organizations are generally in favor of gender-affirming care for these individuals and reject conversion therapy.

Why do you say anorexia is acquired from social pressures? It's definitely possible it is in some instances. But it's also a mental disorder where you see yourself as something different than you truly are. In that sense, it's the exact same as gender confusion. Anorexic people are disgustingly skinny and everyone around thinks they would look better with more weight. If societal pressure causes a person ro starve themselves, why don't they care about the pressure to not look so disgustingly thin? That just doesn't add up in my mind.

Trans people have the highest risk of suicide of all groups by a mile. I'd say that that body dismorphia is pretty dangerous too. You can try to argue that they're suicidal because they aren't accepted in society, and in some cases you would be right. But imagine looking into a mirror and seeing a boy but thinking you're a girl. How could you not be suicidal? Putting lipstick and a dress on could help a little ( just like an anorexic losing a couple more pounds) but you're not going to be satisfied because when you look in a mirror all you will see is a boy with lipstick and a dress.

Are you sure about that research? Are you sure that's why medical organizations are in favor of gender affirming care? I ask because there is a shit ton of money to be made so there could easily be an alternative motive to trick more kids into thinking they're trans.

All that said. I do believe that people out there have serious mental issues with this and I feel really bad for them. But I think we are creating a world where we are teaching kids it's cool to be trans. Most kids will grow out of it. But the ones who get pushed down the path of gender affirming care are going to be forever scared by it. In certain places they are wanting to take kids from their parents because they won't start the path to transition them as minors. How does it make sense to allow such a permanent thing at such a young age? Anyone who has kids know how often they change their minds.

You're one of if not the best poster on here with how you relay your message. You're doing good here too and I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

 

[PCHawk]

I think there’s some difference with that example, though. Being anorexic can kill you pretty easily. Thinking you’re a certain gender isn’t really harmful per se, it just causes inconveniences like how to classify people in sports. Some people might think it’s life and death, but it ain’t.

In other words, anorexia if not stopped leads to permanent physical and mental injury or even death, whereas gender [insert current en vogue term for gender disagreement here] is just something that makes certain other people mad because you want to play in women’s’ sports leagues and use different bathrooms. I don’t think gender issues are something people should care about “fixing” in others

I agree there are differences but I think anorexia is by far the closest thing to gender disphoria. I also agree that overall anorexia is probably more dangerous, but I think you might be minimizing how dangerous it is to celebrate gender disphoria. It might help some but it will hurt many more.

 

[Fryowa]

...I think you might be minimizing how dangerous it is to celebrate gender disphoria. It might help some but it will hurt many more.

I'll give you credit...that's a pretty good troll post. I would have strung it out longer, but maybe you'd have gotten bored.

 

[PCHawk]

The documentary What is a Woman is a really good watch for someone who is interested about this topic. It's admittedly one sided towards the side I'm on. But if anyone wants to understand more about that side, or is already on that side but enjoy the confirmation, I highly suggest watching it. Very well done, but again, extremely one sided.

 

[PCHawk]

I'll give you credit...that's a pretty good troll post. I would have strung it out longer, but maybe you'd have gotten bored.

Lol at you thinking everything I've written is a troll attempt.

 

[Fryowa]

Trans people have the highest risk of suicide of all groups by a mile.

False.

Veterans and males 75 and older have higher rates of suicide compared to other groups. And even that is being ridiculous because it's pigeon-holing suicide causation with correlation. Suicide doesn't stay within the lines of a coloring book.

 

[Fryowa]

But it's also a mental disorder where you see yourself as something different than you truly are. In that sense, it's the exact same as gender confusion. Anorexic people are disgustingly skinny and everyone around thinks they would look better with more weight.

I could tell you religion is a mental disorder (believing in a spirit in the sky that made earth and keeps score on our behavior to decide what happens to our "soul" when we die), being gay is a mental disorder because it can't lead to reproduction, and the list goes on. Just because you do or don't believe something doesn't make it a mental disorder, LOL.

 

[PCHawk]

False.

Veterans and males 75 and older have higher rates of suicide compared to other groups. And even that is being ridiculous because it's pigeon-holing suicide causation with correlation. Suicide doesn't stay within the lines of a coloring book.

Well all that means is we've both seen stats so who knows which stat is accurate. It's true there is no way to know for sure why someone committed suicide. But anyone with a brain knows that the percentage of trans people who kill themselves over trans reasons is a lot higher than the percent of 75 year old males who kill themselves because they're a 75 year old male.