I know Sunday was awful, but then I watched some game from the Lick era.....

[HawkeyeWalker]

Just because you are wining doesn't mean you are factually correct in stating we didn't make the tournament last year. That tournament has expanded over the years, just as the other poster said. If you want to complain, you can. But don't change history to make your case. It only proves you have a weak case if it isn't based in fact.

We went to the NIT championship game two years ago and I believe most reasonable people would say that team at least met expectations, based upon the talent level Fran inherited and the general state of the program when he took over. Last year we made the NCAA Tournament if you asked fans before the start of the year if the team would have met expectations for the season by making the Tourney, most would have said yes.

That doesn't mean the way the season ended didn't leave a bad taste in people's mouths. But don't be disingenuous by having expectations at the start of the season and then when we meet expectations change them from what they originally were so you can cry and whine.

This season isn't over yet. What were your expectations at the start of this season? Maybe it would help if you went on record here and indicated what would constitute a successful season for you. What would really help would be if you could point to a post from before the season that showed your expectation then. I am not sure I would believe your answer without that, but maybe I won't have a choice.

For the record. I am not sure anyone would say we didn't meet expectations, realistic expectations in Fran's first two years. So, if that is the case, and we met them the year we went to the NIT title game and then even if inyour mind we didn't meet them last year, then Fran met expectations three out of his first four years. While last year was in fact a colossal meltdown at the end, what if they had won just one more game and not been one of the last four in? Then would we have met your expectations? If so, then we just barely missed your expectations last year.

This year is not over so I will not take complaining at this point and let it hold any weight, at least not just yet. If you take knee jerk reactions out of the equation, most reasonable people would say Fran met expectations in at least three of his first four seasons, with the jury still out on this season. Is that now a firable record?

Well?

This is a really good post. Let's just get hot, win 4 of the next 6. Go Hawks.

 

[clicheusername3]

I said it in another thread, there's no AD or President that would fire Fran if he took their school from where we were to where we are now. Many didn't even think Iowa would be in position for the NCAA Tourney before the season with Marble gone. I knew from the start of the year we were going to be inconsistent and that's exactly what they've been. No one can turn around what Lick did overnight.

Or apparently in 2,098 overnights either.

 

[wolfgang]

I'm normally over a horrible loss by now..this one is still sticking with me. I still can't believe that happened..

 

[NEIChawk]

Wolfgang...We just got done w/Groundhogs Day, but it has a familiar tone to it, wouldn't ya say?

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Lick was the worst coach (going purely by winning percentage) in the history of this program, so simply being better than Lick isn't necessarily enough to make me happy.

Yes, Fran has made us competitive again, but I don't know what's worse: Being just god awful and not giving a rip when the team loses, or getting your hopes up only to be kicked in the nads, time and time again.

Lick ball was simply depressing. Alford and Fran ball made/make me want to tear my hair out.

 

[wolfgang]

Wolfgang...We just got done w/Groundhogs Day, but it has a familiar tone to it, wouldn't ya say?

That's not unfair at all..I'm sick of the meltdowns. Still plenty of time to turn it around tho..

 

[1977Hawkeye]

I don't label last year a successful year at all. Not when you rise to 10th in the polls then free fall in the second half of the conference season and get bounced by Northwestern in the B1G tourney.

The point that you fail to realize is that Iowa made the tournament. It has not been since 2006 since we've been there. I didn't like being in Dayton at all but we made it. The record books show that and always will despite the spin you are trying to put on it.

Exactly. If you look ONLY at pre-season expectations and where the team ended up at the end of the season, and look at it in a vacuum without watching any of the 30+ games in between, then you would call that season a success. But that team was far better than the final result, thanks to a February/March meltdown.

I could almost say the same for two years ago - The NIT run to the title game was fun, but that team gave away soooo many games in the closing minutes that they really should have been dancing. Just hang on to even 2-3 of those late losses and they would've been there. Again, if you don't pay attention to how the team got to where they were, it looks like a success, but it really was a missed opportunity for much better.

I'm wondering if we're going to end up saying the same for this year. There's still time to right the ship and make the dance, but the last two games make me fear that Meltdown 2015 is already in progress. I really hope not, because I'd like for the first time in almost a decade to be able to watch Iowa play an NCAA game that takes place on a Thursday or Friday, with 30 other teams also playing that same day.

I want to be part of the main festivities for a change, not that so-called "first round".

 

[WindsorHawk]

Oh it wasn't spin. I understand completely that in the eyes of Fran (who received a big bonus) and the NCAA and CBS (who just wants more games for more money) that Iowa made the tournament. The record books will say the same. I just reject it in my mind. And any real basketball purest would do the same.

As Jon Miller said in his article last year "It sure didn't feel like Iowa made the tournament."

Serious question...Did Ohio State win the National Championship in football? Last year there was not a playoff so they could not have won the NC. Changes were made which allowed them to win the NC this year. Was it a real NC or should it be rejected because the eligible field was doubled/expanded this season?

 

[WindsorHawk]

Yes, Fran has made us competitive again, but I don't know what's worse: Being just god awful and not giving a rip when the team loses, or getting your hopes up only to be kicked in the nads, time and time again.

I'll take getting kicked... Because winning at North Carolina, Ohio State, Michigan and beating Maryland was a lot of fun. And even losing some of these close games is more fun than winning under Lick. When Lick beat #6 Michigan State 43-36 I was happy we won and enjoyed the win over Izzo but it wasn't fun to watch the game itself.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Good God. Maybe we can rename Carver to the FranDome for all he's done for Iowa basketball? He's brought Iowa back from the depths of Black and Gold hell? BFD. There are about a zillion coaches who could have done that. Just shows you how epic of a whiff Barta made on Lickloser and was grounds alone to be fired.

The question is whether Fran is or can take us to the next level. There's ZERO evidence that's gonna happen so I guess you'll have to continue to heap the praise on him for doing a truly average job and be all geeked up over Iowa simply being "competitive" again. Might wanna take a look first though at the number of double digit losses we have had this year before throwing that word around so loosely.

Can you define what your next level is? What Fran has done is bring us back from irrelevance to being a consistent tournament team. Fran coached us to the NIT in year 2, the NIT championship game in year 3, the NCAA tournament in year 4 and back to back 20 win seasons, with the likelihood of a 3rd straight 20 win season and 2nd straight NCAA bid.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Serious question...Did Ohio State win the National Championship in football? Last year there was not a playoff so they could not have won the NC. Changes were made which allowed them to win the NC this year. Was it a real NC or should it be rejected because the eligible field was doubled/expanded this season?

Well, technically you're right - any team who starts out in Dayton can win that game, then another, etc. and ultimately it's possible to win it all. So technically, yeah, it counts.

That being the case, if being able to potentially win the national title is the criteria for considering a game to be "in the NCAA Tournament", then the old play in game was also part of the tournament too, right? That 65th team that won the play in game joins the field of 64, and theoretically had a chance to win it all, even if the odds were astronomical.

I just disagree that the old play in game wasn't part of the tournament, but the current first round IS simply because of what those games are now named. It all boils down to the same thing - any number of teams trying to join the field of 64 in a previous round's game(s).

 

[1977Hawkeye]

I'll take getting kicked... Because winning at North Carolina, Ohio State, Michigan and beating Maryland was a lot of fun. And even losing some of these close games is more fun than winning under Lick. When Lick beat #6 Michigan State 43-36 I was happy we won and enjoyed the win over Izzo but it wasn't fun to watch the game itself.

True. Winning those four games wouldn't have happened 6 years ago.

 

[WindsorHawk]

Well, technically you're right - any team who starts out in Dayton can win that game, then another, etc. and ultimately it's possible to win it all. So technically, yeah, it counts.

That being the case, if being able to potentially win the national title is the criteria for considering a game to be "in the NCAA Tournament", then the old play in game was also part of the tournament too, right? That 65th team that won the play in game joins the field of 64, and theoretically had a chance to win it all, even if the odds were astronomical.

I just disagree that the old play in game wasn't part of the tournament, but the current first round IS simply because of what those games are now named. It all boils down to the same thing - any number of teams trying to join the field of 64 in a previous round's game(s).

I was simply making the point that changes in format, field size, etc. happen. Iowa made the current version of the NCAA Tournament last year. Ohio State won the NC in football because of the current system for determining the national champion in football. The Big 10 now has 14 teams...

 

[docholihawk]

I've been frustrated at times with our inconsistent play this year but we are still as good as last year. Next year I think is the true test of where Fran has us. We lose Gabe and Aaron White. If Woody is in foul trouble next year and we don't an adequate backup, if shooting is consistently bad and Gesell doesn't developed more then we will likely fall back a few games. If that happens then I'll have a problem with Fran. He either can't recruit to the level we need to compete or doesn't have the vision to see what we need. Falling back from the success we've had to this point would seem more like never getting there rather than a blip from a long run of success. As to the point of where we are compared to Lick shouldn't even be in the conversation. Fran should be judged on his record and the success of his teams. To judge him against Lick seems like a cyfan type of thinking where they like to judge Rhoads against Chizek. Since Tom Davis left we've had two coaches who've given us a decent amount of success and one who didn't. We've gone way to long since the success of the 70's, 80's and 90's.

 

[hawkfan340]

Haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to point out that it's not really fair to compare eras in terms of making the NCAA tournament. Yes, the tourney has been expanded but the numbers of conferences and Div I teams have also expanded.

In 1985, when the NCAA went to 64 teams, there were 34 at-large bids available. Now there are 36, so a slight expansion. However, the number of teams vying for those spots has increase substantially.

I couldn't find the exact number of Div I teams in 1985, but I believe it was somewhere in the mid/upper 200's whereas now we have about 350 DI teams.

Also, I think the amount of talent in the middle-lower echelon of DI teams has increased due to general population growth of the US and due to the amount of kids playing sports all over the country.

 

[BlackGold57]

I suddenly felt 110% better about the program. Yes we lost to two teams that aren't great last week, but my God I was reminded how horrible Iowa basketball got under Lick. I won't deny Lick inherited a mess but he made it worse and I saw again with my own eyes how bad this team once was. They never had a chance in over half of the games played once the ball was tipped.

I was mad as hell at Fran yesterday, but he has brought this program a long ways from the depths of Hell the Black and Gold was once in. Iowa is actually competitive again and can play with pretty much anyone in the nation. I agree things could be better but I also don't want to be quick to run a guy out of town who has made leaps and bounds compared to what he inherited, which was much worse than the state when Lick came to town.

We all know Fran needs to recruit better and I do think this next class is pretty good. We also know the Hawks really need to make the NCAA's this season and I still think they can. I can be mad at the players and the coach, but if you ever want to know what despair is like, pop in pretty much any game from the Lick era and be reminded that Iowa Basketball was about as close to bottoming out as we've ever seen in our lifetime. It was the Bob Cummings era all over again on the hardwood.

Go Hawks!

Glad you feel better. When the next generation of Hawk fans grow up, will they be saying "well it's better than Lickliter." I cannot believe the level of competitiveness in this fan base. You are probably happy if your kids get through the 11th grade and drop out; "at least they got to the 11th grade, I only made it through 10th"

 

[MelroseHawkins]

I suddenly felt 110% better about the program. Yes we lost to two teams that aren't great last week, but my God I was reminded how horrible Iowa basketball got under Lick. I won't deny Lick inherited a mess but he made it worse and I saw again with my own eyes how bad this team once was. They never had a chance in over half of the games played once the ball was tipped.

I was mad as hell at Fran yesterday, but he has brought this program a long ways from the depths of Hell the Black and Gold was once in. Iowa is actually competitive again and can play with pretty much anyone in the nation. I agree things could be better but I also don't want to be quick to run a guy out of town who has made leaps and bounds compared to what he inherited, which was much worse than the state when Lick came to town.

We all know Fran needs to recruit better and I do think this next class is pretty good. We also know the Hawks really need to make the NCAA's this season and I still think they can. I can be mad at the players and the coach, but if you ever want to know what despair is like, pop in pretty much any game from the Lick era and be reminded that Iowa Basketball was about as close to bottoming out as we've ever seen in our lifetime. It was the Bob Cummings era all over again on the hardwood.

Go Hawks!

Couldn't agree more. People just need to chill the hell out & be a bit more patient. Remember where we came from.

 

[BlackGold57]

I've been frustrated at times with our inconsistent play this year but we are still as good as last year. Next year I think is the true test of where Fran has us. We lose Gabe and Aaron White. If Woody is in foul trouble next year and we don't an adequate backup, if shooting is consistently bad and Gesell doesn't developed more then we will likely fall back a few games. If that happens then I'll have a problem with Fran. He either can't recruit to the level we need to compete or doesn't have the vision to see what we need. Falling back from the success we've had to this point would seem more like never getting there rather than a blip from a long run of success. As to the point of where we are compared to Lick shouldn't even be in the conversation. Fran should be judged on his record and the success of his teams. To judge him against Lick seems like a cyfan type of thinking where they like to judge Rhoads against Chizek. Since Tom Davis left we've had two coaches who've given us a decent amount of success and one who didn't. We've gone way to long since the success of the 70's, 80's and 90's.

Interesting, your are comparing Alford to McCaffery? Alford won 2 B10 tourney's, something Fran has not even sniffed. I know, its Lickliter's fault.

 

[Knight78]

You must have a different definition of "good year" than most of us. What good years have we had recently?

We haven't made the tournament since 06? Sorry, play in games don't count.

You know, I don't get that statement "play in games don't count". What, are we going to turn down the play-in game? "Oh, no thanks NCAA Tournament Committe, we are going to go to the NIT." It's an NCAA tournament game. If we had won that NCAA game last year and gone on like Tennessee did, would you be saying that we only won 2 games or 3?

Personally I wish they'd stick with 64 teams. Period. Makes the bracket easier to fill out. But they've chosen to go to 68, and all 68 are in the NCAA tournament.

 

[Knight78]

If they expanded the field to 96 teams would it count as a tournament appearence? How about 128? I think you get my point.

If the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee expanded the field to 96 teams, then YES it would count as a tournament appearance. Same for 128 games. What, do you wish we'd go back to only 32 teams in the tournament bracket?

We don't get to set the number of teams that qualify for the NCAA Tournament. The NCAA does. If they say 68 teams qualify then all 68 teams make the tournament.