I have spoken to several former Iowa Football players today

[homerHAWKeye777]

As a life-long Hawk fan, I want to accept Jon's viewpoint and that of the majority of comments. However as a retired physician who spent 12 yrs on the faculty at the Univ medical school, I must raise another viewpoint. How many football players were involved in the workouts? I doubt that any of the 25 who finished their eligibility (or left for any reason) were involved. Thus the number could be as low as 60, but being generous and assuming that a large number of walk-ons were involved, the number still does not exceed 100. This means the incidence of hospitalization (required treatment at hospital or stayed overnight) was between 1 in every 5 and 1 in every 8. I have trouble accepting any practice that has a 12 to 20% rate of hospitalization. Would you take a medication that had those odds of hospitalization? The second concern relates to the fact that even though all will hopefully recover without consequence, the chances of long-term complication from this type of kidney insult is not zero. If the program continues forward with a 12 to 20% chance of hospitalization, we will eventually see the first case of long-term kidney damage. Based on these observations, I hope that this event will prompt a careful review (I did NOT say investigation).

As a former physician you're also not accounting for the fact that correlations exist. We're not talking about upwards of a 100 guys who are just randomly having these issues.

Rather, we're having guys who do A LOT of stuff together. When you're dealing with a community of guys who are also taking supplements (that are presumably protein-rich) ... when taken incorrectly AND combined with VERY rigorous training ... that can amplify such correlations. If you have a few guys who think that they know the "right way" to consume the supplements but they accidently heard wrong ... and then they SHARE that information with their fellow players ... that can contribute to a cascaded failure.

The point here being that your elementary statistical reasoning isn't really applicable.

 

[CAARHawk]

Jon, by using the "it isn't intramurals, it's Big Ten football" quote, indicating this is the most strenuous time of the year for conditioning and including some comments by older players talking about strenuous workouts, you project the understanding that it isn't a big deal.

These things might be true, but have we ever had 12 players hospitalized after a workout? For that matter, has any NCAA team had 12 players hospitalized after a workout? Wouldn't this be useful to know? Your comments make it seem like this is not abnormal. But, I would suggest we don't know that unless we compare it to rates of hospitalizations in other years and programs.

You then say people shouldn't jump to conclusions until we get Ferentz' explanation on Wednesday.

Well, doesn't erring on the side of it not being a big deal also jump to a conclusion? Did you talk to any physicians or trainers from other programs to gain more information?

Aren't you asking for people to get all the facts before making assumptions?

Well, I might suggest that getting the facts goes beyond only talking to people related to the program or waiting for the "official" response.

Accordingly, I might suggest taking your own advice and simply stating things as fact without any spin that might minimize the situation, that is before all the facts are reported. Also, I might suggest getting more information, even if it doesn't necessarily shine so positively on the Iowa program.

 

[ripvdub]

Yeah. Ignore those Iowa football players lying in hospital beds getting IV drips to restore fluids and medications to help repair possible kidney damage.

I was just sarcastically echoing what many on here and the AD were saying. Im on my phone, I should have posted this but its harder to do...

 

[latrans]

As a former physician you're also not accounting for the fact that correlations exist. We're not talking about upwards of a 100 guys who are just randomly having these issues.

Rather, we're having guys who do A LOT of stuff together. When you're dealing with a community of guys who are also taking supplements (that are presumably protein-rich) ... when taken incorrectly AND combined with VERY rigorous training ... that can amplify such correlations. If you have a few guys who think that they know the "right way" to consume the supplements but they accidently heard wrong ... and then they SHARE that information with their fellow players ... that can contribute to a cascaded failure.

The point here being that your elementary statistical reasoning isn't really applicable.

I hope you're right and there are mitigating factors because if this really was a situation where the coaches pushed the players to the point of kidney damage then that is kinda worst case senario in my book.

 

[CAARHawk]

As a former physician you're also not accounting for the fact that correlations exist. We're not talking about upwards of a 100 guys who are just randomly having these issues.

Rather, we're having guys who do A LOT of stuff together. When you're dealing with a community of guys who are also taking supplements (that are presumably protein-rich) ... when taken incorrectly AND combined with VERY rigorous training ... that can amplify such correlations. If you have a few guys who think that they know the "right way" to consume the supplements but they accidently heard wrong ... and then they SHARE that information with their fellow players ... that can contribute to a cascaded failure.

The point here being that your elementary statistical reasoning isn't really applicable.

Homer, homer, homer, couldn't the practice also include taking the supplement? What if the practice (of which the Dr. speaks) is taking the supplement and doing excessively strenuous workouts? You are talking about isolating variables. If you think the Dr. is only talking about the actual weight lifting workout variable, then you have a point. But he could be talking about a composite workout variable that includes the consumption of supplements.

However, I wouldn't suggest he is saying that because we have no information about supplements. We have information about workouts solely. Any attempt to ascribe other variables into the situation goes outside the available data. You know this. As soon as you start throwing in potential variables outside the available data, you go down a slippery slope.

For instance, these guys could have all been abducted by aliens as they left the workout facility. The aliens could have injected fluid into their blood that came out in their urine.

So let's stick to what we know. The athletes did the same workout. It put a large percentage into the hospital, so the doctor's comments hold up.

Now, if we get additional data that will allow for additional correlations then we can work those into the analysis.

 

[IOWuh]

The Athletic Dept continues to shoot themselves in the foot. They put out cryptic statements that do nothing but fuel the fire of speculation. Look what happened after DJKs arrest. There were a thousand rumors that (mostly) were extinguished as soon as Ferentz made his follow up statement a few days later. Why let time go by? Grab the bull by the horns, make a concrete statement and stop the bloodsuckers who are looking for a story.

 

[satxhawk]

As a former physician you're also not accounting for the fact that correlations exist. We're not talking about upwards of a 100 guys who are just randomly having these issues.

Rather, we're having guys who do A LOT of stuff together. When you're dealing with a community of guys who are also taking supplements (that are presumably protein-rich) ... when taken incorrectly AND combined with VERY rigorous training ... that can amplify such correlations. If you have a few guys who think that they know the "right way" to consume the supplements but they accidently heard wrong ... and then they SHARE that information with their fellow players ... that can contribute to a cascaded failure.

The point here being that your elementary statistical reasoning isn't really applicable.

You missed my point - I said I hoped there would be a review of what happened. I simply used statistics (elementary in your opinion) to explain why I am concerned. You are right though about statistics in that they can really be misused. If one player suffered long-term damage we could justify that one is a small percent of those involved. However, the other statistical evaluation of that case is that for the parents of this player, it was 100% I don't intend to continue this bickering over statistics, I simply am concerned and hope that a review will prevent it in the future without having negative impact on the overall program.

 

[tm3308]

Homer, homer, homer, couldn't the practice also include taking the supplement? What if the practice (of which the Dr. speaks) is taking the supplement and doing excessively strenuous workouts? You are talking about isolating variables. If you think the Dr. is only talking about the actual weight lifting workout variable, then you have a point. But he could be talking about a composite workout variable that includes the consumption of supplements.

However, I wouldn't suggest he is saying that because we have no information about supplements. We have information about workouts solely. Any attempt to ascribe other variables into the situation goes outside the available data. You know this. As soon as you start throwing in potential variables outside the available data, you go down a slippery slope.

For instance, these guys could have all been abducted by aliens as they left the workout facility. The aliens could have injected fluid into their blood that came out in their urine.

So let's stick to what we know. The athletes did the same workout. It put a large percentage into the hospital, so the doctor's comments hold up.

Now, if we get additional data that will allow for additional correlations then we can work those into the analysis.

Coaches aren't allowed to give out supplements anymore, so I would be surprised if they were allowed to require players to take them prior to a workout.

The supplement theory makes plenty of sense. This workout has been done many times before with no problems such as this, making it seem less likely that it was ridiculously excessive.

And while Jon IS coming to a conclusion, it's only a temporary one. If it came out that Doyle had them on a crazy, inhuman workout that caused this, I'm sure Jon's stance would change. He just plays it on the safe side rather than fly off the handle. And he's talked with several players before coming to that conclusion.

 

[JonDMiller]

Nobody at Iowa is talking right now, so I went and spoke to some that would talk to me off the record about past experiences.

And I have said numerous time that the fact 12 people went to the hospital certainly is the aspect to all of this that is going to need more illumination. There is no attempt at any cooperative cover up here....just trying to remind people to chill a bit, reminding them of how foolish some of them looked one month ago, and by going all chicken little, if things turn out to be innocent, which I expect for them to be given the 12 year track record of this coaching staff, they will look foolish again and will have exacerbated a situation.

 

[olivecourt]

The Athletic Dept continues to shoot themselves in the foot. They put out cryptic statements that do nothing but fuel the fire of speculation. Look what happened after DJKs arrest. There were a thousand rumors that (mostly) were extinguished as soon as Ferentz made his follow up statement a few days later. Why let time go by? Grab the bull by the horns, make a concrete statement and stop the bloodsuckers who are looking for a story.

The press release already gave as much information as it was legally allowed to give. You can't release names and medical information while people are in the hospital without consent. Just take a deep breath for a second. We're still not even 24 hours past the time that this story broke.

And it's ironic that you bring up DJK-- a similar situation in that the U of I put out a very clear statement limited to DJK and his arrest, and everybody just believed whatever they wanted to anyway. What are they supposed to do? Put out a statement that says: "The following players are not on cocaine"?

Everyone is so quick to point fingers at the athletic department, but if we weren't so crazy to get to the bottom of these stories right away than the market for speculation would stop and no one would click on the sort of far-fetched rumors that were posted in both situations. As long as there's a market it for it, people are going to make things up regardless of what the university releases.

 

[IOWuh]

There's a huge difference between giving out names and exact diagnoses and putting out an upfront, concise press release. I think they tried to do that with their second statement but they'd have done better to put their follow up statement in the initial press release. Just my opinion.

 

[JonDMiller]

Everyone is so quick to point fingers at the athletic department,,,.

Which does puzzle me a bit. For 12 years, Kirk Ferentz has been strict with discipline when needed. He has been a stand up guy in the dealings I have had with him.

No, he's not perfect, nor is any man. He's not a big fan of media in general, so there are a few grease fires during each year, but that is what happens with a group of men, one side looking to write stories, another side looking to keep things in house (and I am talking mundane, week to week stuff). That happens.

Yet something like this happens, and people that purport to be fans of the team, fans of the coach, etc, all of the sudden start assuming the worst possible things, void of any data to support it...when someone suggests it might not be a sinister plot, that person is deemed as a homer or someone that isn't objective during controversial topics...

sort of like last month when there was a Salem witch hunt mentality on the message boards, chicken in every pot and dope in every dorm craze on the boards, and that turned out to be BS.

It does surprise me how the herd has been so quick to assume the worst..more than assume, extrapolate on the worst case hypothetical, non-supported scenarios.

 

[iowaboy85]

There really is nothing to see here. 12 players either did not hydrate themselves properly or were taking supplements in the wrong fashion. I have been part of many intense football workouts similar to this. Hydration is the number one culprit to your body failing in these workouts. The coaches did not take the workout too far. Its just as Jon has mentioned, Shock Training. Its intended to get your muscles and body back into the spring of things.

 

[edr247]

The hospitalizations started during the course of Monday evening, correct? Well, my guess is that the team came into the new week, perhaps hadn't been training in a while, or trained at a lower level during the break, and was hit with a ridiculously high level workout, with a heavy weight component. On top of that, they were pretty dehydrated (how do you drink water during a timed 100 squat weight set?).

Whether other things such as drugs, alcohol or supplements had something to do with this, we can't be sure. Between protein supplements, vitamin/amino acid supplements, botanicals, and weight loss/fat burning supplements, there are plenty of things you probably shouldn't be putting in your body when faced with extremely strenuous weight lifting/cardio workouts and exercise related dehydration.

 

[ColoradoHAWKEYE]

I like the alien abduction explanation best! I'm sure the staff will look into it (the unique and rare problem), address it and move on. We should too. Players get sick doing workouts in all sports in all places. I think that while the the story is certainly not irrelevant, it should not be made into a National headline grabbing story.

The number of guys checked out is what makes this a story. 12 is not 3 or 4, or 6 or 7, it's 12. I'll bet that whatever was involved to bring on the condition to more than a couple, the remainder that fit into the same category were heavily encouraged to check themselves out as well. (see the bus accident example a few posts back).

Also, in formulating your guesstimate of the number of players involved, keep in mind that while there are many players on the team, they certainly do not all work out at the same time, especially in off-season conditioning. It could be dictated by class time or their particular segment (position), or whatever. I think, while getting informed of the situation is nice, whatever actually happened will come out.

 

[edr247]

By the way, isn't there some sort of a flu going around campus?

 

[tazclone]

There really is nothing to see here. 12 players either did not hydrate themselves properly or were taking supplements in the wrong fashion. I have been part of many intense football workouts similar to this. Hydration is the number one culprit to your body failing in these workouts. The coaches did not take the workout too far. Its just as Jon has mentioned, Shock Training. Its intended to get your muscles and body back into the spring of things.

Yes, nothing to see here. 12 players hospitalized. I don't doubt that it is due to a rigorous workout but the fact stands that 12 players were hospitalized. This is not normal. It is not something that occurs on a frequent basis. In the end, the staff needs to figure out why it happened and ensure that it doesn't happen again.

People that think that this will all be straightened out by former players and KF are crazy. Former players are not going to damage the program even if there is a problem (not saying there is) and KF never enlightens with a presser. Nothing will come out in public but a generic statement. That is all the University can do due to privacy laws.

 

[CAARHawk]

Which does puzzle me a bit. For 12 years, Kirk Ferentz has been strict with discipline when needed. He has been a stand up guy in the dealings I have had with him.

No, he's not perfect, nor is any man. He's not a big fan of media in general, so there are a few grease fires during each year, but that is what happens with a group of men, one side looking to write stories, another side looking to keep things in house (and I am talking mundane, week to week stuff). That happens.

Yet something like this happens, and people that purport to be fans of the team, fans of the coach, etc, all of the sudden start assuming the worst possible things, void of any data to support it...when someone suggests it might not be a sinister plot, that person is deemed as a homer or someone that isn't objective during controversial topics...

sort of like last month when there was a Salem witch hunt mentality on the message boards, chicken in every pot and dope in every dorm craze on the boards, and that turned out to be BS.

It does surprise me how the herd has been so quick to assume the worst..more than assume, extrapolate on the worst case hypothetical, non-supported scenarios.

I don't think it is as much an issue of people assuming the worst. I have not heard calls (from this fan base) for Doyle, Ferentz, Barta, etc. to be fired. A few people from other fan bases (and bloggers) have made such suggestions and have brought up roids, but Iowa fans haven't.

I just think what irks some of us is that it seems like any attempt at critical thinking that does not shed the most positive light on the program is condemned as a "witch hunt." I am not a fan of rampant speculation. But I am a fan of asking reasonable questions, such as "has there ever been a period in Hawkeye history where a similar event occurred? How about other programs?

Seriously, isn't it reasonable to think that a practice or set of practices that puts 12 players in the hospital might be something to be concerned about? It seems like the athletic department is saying this when they indicated they need to figure out what happened so it doesn't happen again. That makes things pretty clear that this isn't just business as usual.

Also, isn't it reasonable to suggest that the athletic department could handle their PR more effectively? Media people have been saying this for years, seems like we should be able to think the same way.

Both of these seem to be the most rational responses. Far more reasonable than the one that one that says, "nothing to be concerned about here, move along."

 

[tazclone]

I don't think it is as much an issue of people assuming the worst. I have not heard calls for Doyle, Ferentz, Barta, etc. to be fired. A few people from other fan bases have brought up roids, but Iowa fans haven't.

I just think what irks some of us is that it seems like any attempt at critical thinking that does not shed the most positive light on the program is condemned as a "witch hunt." I am not a fan of rampant speculation. But I am a fan of asking reasonable questions, such as "has there ever been a period in Hawkeye history where a similar event occurred? How about other programs?

Seriously, isn't it reasonable to think that a practice or set of practices that puts 12 players in the hospital might be something to be concerned about? It seems like the athletic department is saying this when they indicated they need to figure out what happened so it doesn't happen again. That makes things pretty clear that this isn't just business as usual.

Also, isn't it reasonable to suggest that the athletic department could handle their PR more effectively? Media people have been saying this for years, seems like we should be able to think the same way.

Both of these seem to be the most rational responses. Far more reasonable than the one that one that says, "nothing to be concerned about here, move along."

Bravo. Something that puts 12 guys in the hospital is an area of concern. It does not matter what happened in the past or what former players who were not there think. What does matter is 12 players were hospitalized (over night). If one player is hospitalized it is an issue but it may be due to that player's body reacting different. 12 players is an issue and it goes beyong individual bodies reacting different. To ask questions isn't witch hunting but it is being curious and rightfully so.

 

[tm3308]

I agree that questions are fine. There needs to be a seriously close look taken at what happened. Whether the workout was simply too strenuous/dangerous, players were improperly administering supplements, dehydration, whatever, the athletic department needs to find a way to prevent whatever it was from happening again.