Hawkeyes Past, Present, Future Share Feelings on Racial Injustice

[Robowe]

 

[SpiderRico]

See though, it's posts like this from the NY Times that don't do ANYONE any good. There's no context. Just a bunch of numbers. There's a reason there's a saying of "there's lies, damn lies, and statistics".

A way more meaningful statistic would be "unnecessary/unjustified use of force". Because if we are asking our law enforcement to not defend themselves anymore, then let's just pack it in as a society.

Again, discussion is good....but it has to be HONEST discussion and not "gotcha" stats that have no effing context.

 

[Robowe]

See though, it's posts like this from the NY Times that don't do ANYONE any good. There's no context. Just a bunch of numbers. There's a reason there's a saying of "there's lies, damn lies, and statistics".

A way more meaningful statistic would be "unnecessary/unjustified use of force". Because if we are asking our law enforcement to not defend themselves anymore, then let's just pack it in as a society.

Again, discussion is good....but it has to be HONEST discussion and not "gotcha" stats that have no effing context.

Actually, this is how a discussion begins. These numbers show, from the minority perspective, how they feel they are treated by the police. That's the context.

 

[PCHawk]

I just watched an 8 minute speech by Killer Mike. I'd link but I suck at links. It's worth watching. That's one motivational dude.

 

[Robowe]

 

[Robowe]

I just watched an 8 minute speech by Killer Mike. I'd link but I suck at links. It's worth watching. That's one motivational dude.

 

[dahlhawk]

For people who don't believe there is conscious and unconscious racism just work a day in retail. My fellow employees who are black are often subject to customers who are condescending and hostile. These customers often feel they can say whatever they want to these employees as long as they don't say the magic words. I wish businesses had to guts to stop this behavior by bad customers but as everything in America profits come first.

 

[PCHawk]

Actually, this is how a discussion begins. These numbers show, from the minority perspective, how they feel they are treated by the police. That's the context.

Another aspect of cops using excessive force when needed is maybe a black person is resisting arrest out of fear. Man fears cop. Cop tries to arrest man. Man resists arrest out of fear. Cop uses excessive force. That's a pretty vicious cycle.

 

[Hawk1960]

I mentioned the school part above, but it isn't just a school funding issue (I think that is an interjected teachers' union talking point). Keeping the schools as they are and increasing funding is just a continuation of separate but equal. They actually have to desegregate the schools. The South was ordered to desegregate schools in the '50's and '60's. I live in a nice upper middle class neighborhood in the deep south and it is probably a quarter to a third black. That setup is fairly common in the South, but very uncommon in the North. Places like Chicago, Detroit and New York are completely segregated, yet the so-called "intellectuals" who live in them paint southerners as redneck racists at every possible turn. If there is racism, they tell themselves, it must either be unconscious on our part because we are virtuous or systemic because it must be the system, it can't possibly be us! So they have to look to the South for stuff from 50 years ago so their noses aren't rubbed in the massive injustice that happens 2 miles from their house where the "bad school" boundary starts.

Thurgood Marshall wrote a good dissent on the issue back in 1974 when the Detroit busing case hit the Supreme Court. He said:



That is absolutely spot on. The government cannot ensure equality of outcome and it can't create a totally level playing field (and that holds within races as well), but to me the biggest issue is that the government has to take every possible step to ensure that the schools are desegregated and that each kid gets a relatively equal input in terms of a government funded education at the outset.

You raise a good point about some of the "regional bias" that is often used against people in the south and also "flyover country" as some of the so called coastal elites like to use to describe large portions of the country. I don't think it is any where near the level that we see with racism but those regional bias issues are just another form of intolerance in my opinion or you could label it stereotyping. The classic example was in the Rose Bowl when the Stanford Band mocked the whole state of Iowa. Many in the media, and especially Hollywood, are guilty of this in my opinion.

 

[dahlhawk]

Another aspect of cops using excessive force when needed is maybe a black person is resisting arrest out of fear. Man fears cop. Cop tries to arrest man. Man resists arrest out of fear. Cop uses excessive force. That's a pretty vicious cycle.

How often do we see white people argue with police while being arrested, most don't end up dead. Personally I believe that police fear excessive force on whites due to their ability to hire lawyers and sue. I'm sure in lower income neighborhoods police don't fear this outcome. The cellphone is now the power to force good behavior. Body cameras should be mandatory as well as in every squad car. That being said it's so dangerous to be a police officer and they are so often disrespected. They do the work nobody else wants to do. Imagine driving into neighborhoods on a call and getting nothing but looks of hatred towards you, and once you get to the call nobody will answer any questions or cooperate. Look for good cops to start quitting and who will take their place. The military?

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Here's my analogy for White Privilege:

Both George Flloyd and Lori Loughlin committed felony level fraud.

George Flloyd is dead after having the life choked out of him by a knee to the neck by a police officer while being placed under arrest.

Lori Loughlin was allowed to turn herself in and plead not guilty and then allowed to post bail and return home. She was later allowed to re-receive a plea deal after originally declining and then later CHANGE her plea to guilty after initially trying to say "F you" to the court system. She is now supposed to spend 2 months in prison, likely at a time of her choosing, but the "where, when and if" are all still being worked out. Regardless she will likely be able to turn herself in on her terms and negotiate her jail time.

It's a shitty analogy. What happened to George Floyd would not happen to Lebron James. You're comparing "racial" privilege to "economic" privilege. Do you think OJ Simpson was guilty? What about Kobe Bryant? In each case, economics gave them access to legal defense that the average person, economically, will never have in the same circumstances. The system ran its course. It just so happens that said course is a little easier for some than for others.

Just as Bill Cosby is--and this is only my opinion--a victim of #MeToo, and some pretty absurd lies, BOTH he and Harvey Weinstein were DOA, defense-wise. Do I believe Bill Cosby is innocent? Possibly. Do I believe Harvey Weinstein is innocent? Not on your life, my life, or the life of anyone else on here. But at least Weinstein's trial featured credible witnesses and victim statements. Bill Cosby's trial? Please, for the love of God,at what point did a laughingstock like Janice Dickinson become credible, believable, or anything in between? Without #MeToo, I think Cosby walks. But...is that just a perception shaped by years of being a Cosby fan? Maybe. But you could send send any Pope, MLK, JFK and anyone else into a trial in a #MeToo environment, and the guy is toast. Money won't buy a way out of that, even for the innocent.

Lori Loughlin? Frankly, she may spend more time in jail than any of the mommies and daddies that bought their kids' way into whatever dream colleges those kids wanted.

 

[Ree4]

It wasn't Nixon, but I said something about that being a draw to the SEC.

You guys are obviously free to ban me if you think I'm racist. It's a privately owned site on the internet for chrissakes. I don't have any say in it. I won't be mad, because I learned a long time ago not to let others' opinions to make me lose sleep. I've stayed out of most of this discussion because it's causing people to hate each other who wouldn't otherwise, but since you bring it up here's my take...

1) I think white privilege is a very real thing. It absolutely exists and my life has been easier in many ways because of it. I don't worry if people are going to avoid me, pull me over for no reason, turn me down on job interviews, any shit like that. If I were black I'd worry about those things.

2) I'm just not going to admit to being overtly or even consciously racist though. You may believe I am, but I'm sorry, we have to disagree. If that's a ban or an admonishment on this board, there's nothing I can do to stop it. What I will say, however, is that I will not come out and tell people I've never had an unconscious bias at some point in my life. Anyone who says they've always, 100% been totally blind to race, gender, societal class, etc. is a liar. I know I have even if I can't think of a particular instance.

If anything I've probably been more susceptible to it and guilty of it. I've lived almost my entire life in NW Iowa and it's one of the "whitest" places in the US. However, where I and others here will differ, is that living where I do doesn't make me racist by default. It can make one ignorant to the problem and out of touch for sure--and I am definitely out of touch with race relations--but it doesn't make someone racist automatically. There are people who equate ignorance to be equal to racism, but I don't think that's such a clear line to draw.

3) There's little chance for discussion, especially on this thread. There are posts that are just off in loony toons left field like the one about offering trips to Africa as a consolation prize, but there are also genuine questions and discussion points that are immediately hit with a sledgehammer. I get that Rob is upset by a lot of people's ignorance on this topic, but after reading through every page of this thread I could see how one would avoid asking a question or making a statement because any slight deviance in understanding, an y slight discussion point, is immediately hit with the the RACIST stamp.

Here's what I think the discussion is twisting. There is a component of the population that's blatantly racist and/or downplays the plight of minorities. Those people are irrelevant because they're obvious, and they won't change their minds. Then there's the contingent (I think @RobHowe refers to part of it as "whataboutism") who say things that aren't probably intentionally racist like, "but I have lots of black friends," or "but why do 'they' have to loot," but they're ignorant. These are the people who could benefit (possibly; not always) from dialogue like the Uncomfortable Discussions With A Black Man. Which I thought was f'ing powerful.

And I'll leave it off with @InGoodCo right here. I know we went round and round about this months ago. Whatever you do now, don't give me any softballs about how you don't think I'm racist, or that I'm generally a good dude, or how you don't dislike me, or any other affirmation. I don't need affirmation and feel good stuff. I comfortable with my own mind, I know whether I hate people or not, and I'm ok. It would just make you sound weak and sound like you're waffling. If you think that's what I am then own it proudly. If I thought you were I'd say so and not try to sugarcoat it.

I'd say I love all you guys to get a chuckle and break some tension, but it'd just set another fire off about how I don't really love people or I shouldn't love so and so because they aren't as enlightened as they should be. If you guys wanna talk about sports or hot sauce or fishing I'm always down for that, but I'm not an ignorant shit stain like was insinuated.

Hate and ignorance are both really, really bad but not the same thing, guys. Ignorance can be educated and redeemed. Hate can't.

I can admit that you're usually very well thought out, but also probably the most abrasive person on this board. We got into it on the Oliver Martin thread (more like you coming at me ) but I understood why at least and didn't take it personally. You dont just guess at things and the reasoning for it is usually pretty sound and worth reading. I don't agree with the personal attacks directed at specific posters that are often insulting, but I think that just comes with the territory of being outspoken.
People are different. Some try to sugar coat their criticism and want criticism of them to be sugar coated. Others are very direct and want the feedback they receive to be the same. In real life I am definitely the former, but probably play more of the role of the latter here.
This is meant as a compliment BTW.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Like the general population or any workforce, there are bad cops that need to find another occupation. This cop in Minneapolis had 18 previous complaints. Why in the hell he was still on the force is beyond me. The Chief of Police (or a D.A.) should have sent him packing years ago. In this particular case it is systemic. In a roundabout way it's up to the citizens of that city to elect a Mayor who will be responsible for hiring a Police Chief that delivers. Having said that, I think the vast majority of cops are good people and there to serve their community and do put their lives on the line every day.

I'm not a huge fan of the former NYPD Police Chief but he does raise some interesting stats in this article ...

https://www.newsmax.com/bernardkerik/police-shootings-crime-statistics/2019/01/22/id/899297/

Unfortunately,this is one of those times where we all look at "the system", and ask, "What the hell? WHAT system?!"

Chauvin's wife NOW wants a divorce? Other cops stood by? I got a better shot at understanding why the castaways never got off Gilligan's Island than I do of understanding WTF happened to allow Derek Chauvin to murder George Floyd while fellow cops stood idly by.

 

[PCHawk]

How often do we see white people argue with police while being arrested, most don't end up dead. Personally I believe that police fear excessive force on whites due to their ability to hire lawyers and sue. I'm sure in lower income neighborhoods police don't fear this outcome. The cellphone is now the power to force good behavior. Body cameras should be mandatory as well as in every squad car. That being said it's so dangerous to be a police officer and they are so often disrespected. They do the work nobody else wants to do. Imagine driving into neighborhoods on a call and getting nothing but looks of hatred towards you, and once you get to the call nobody will answer any questions or cooperate. Look for good cops to start quitting and who will take their place. The military?

I was more so talking about the suspect getting physical than just arguing. I responded to a post that said you need to look at the numbers on "unjustified use of force". What I was getting at is those numbers could also be a bit misleading because if a suspect resists arrest, it becomes justified use of force. But maybe more black people resist arrest out of fear whereas pretty much every white guy who resists arrest is not out of fear.

 

[Ree4]

I just watched an 8 minute speech by Killer Mike. I'd link but I suck at links. It's worth watching. That's one motivational dude.

Killer Mike is one of my favorite speakers, his voice was meant for activism.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

It's a shitty analogy. What happened to George Floyd would not happen to Lebron James. You're comparing "racial" privilege to "economic" privilege. Do you think OJ Simpson was guilty? What about Kobe Bryant? In each case, economics gave them access to legal defense that the average person, economically, will never have in the same circumstances. The system ran its course. It just so happens that said course is a little easier for some than for others.

Just as Bill Cosby is--and this is only my opinion--a victim of #MeToo, and some pretty absurd lies, BOTH he and Harvey Weinstein were DOA, defense-wise. Do I believe Bill Cosby is innocent? Possibly. Do I believe Harvey Weinstein is innocent? Not on your life, my life, or the life of anyone else on here. But at least Weinstein's trial featured credible witnesses and victim statements. Bill Cosby's trial? Please, for the love of God,at what point did a laughingstock like Janice Dickinson become credible, believable, or anything in between? Without #MeToo, I think Cosby walks. But...is that just a perception shaped by years of being a Cosby fan? Maybe. But you could send send any Pope, MLK, JFK and anyone else into a trial in a #MeToo environment, and the guy is toast. Money won't buy a way out of that, even for the innocent.

Lori Loughlin? Frankly, she may spend more time in jail than any of the mommies and daddies that bought their kids' way into whatever dream colleges those kids wanted.

I agree with your points about the economics of it. $ separates the haves and the have nots quite a bit. I won't say more then race does as a flat statement. But I do think circumstantially it sure does.

I couldn't disagree more about Bill Cosby. From what all I'd read he seems guilty as sin... I do agree MeTOO got him and without that he'd have not even been in front of a judge/jury. But I think for years and years he'd been a disgusting human being. That's just me though..

 

[Hawk1960]

I can admit that you're usually very well thought out, but also probably the most abrasive person on this board. We got into it on the Oliver Martin thread (more like you coming at me ) but I understood why at least and didn't take it personally. You dont just guess at things and the reasoning for it is usually pretty sound and worth reading. I don't agree with the personal attacks directed at specific posters that are often insulting, but I think that just comes with the territory of being outspoken.
People are different. Some try to sugar coat their criticism and want criticism of them to be sugar coated. Others are very direct and want the feedback they receive to be the same. In real life I am definitely the former, but probably play more of the role of the latter here.
This is meant as a compliment BTW.

Kumbaya. With you and Fryowa sharing such similar avatars I always thought you guys would reconcile. Fryowa has never insulted me so I guess I'm feeling a little left out.

 

[Ree4]

Kumbaya. With you and Fryowa sharing such similar avatars I always thought you guys would reconcile. Fryowa has never insulted me so I guess I'm feeling a little left out.

Switched to Hayden after he passed, it's so hard to switch to something else - maybe some day!

 

[InGoodCo]

@Fryowa I am not calling you a racist, I also think you're a decent person. That's not a cop out and I am not doing it to save face or have a feel good moment. We've long reconciled that and other issues we've had in regards to ideals on Iowa or life in general. What you said that day, was indeed, incredibly racist and instead of owning it ya dug in further and that was really what floored me. I chalk it up to very few posters on this site (or internet in general) to own anything, apologize, or agree that they might have been wrong or crossed a line and possibly either offended someone or hurt soemone's feelings. That didn't set you apart. I have said racist shit before. I have. I was young and I was baptized in racist remarks until I got out of the house in small rural Iowa. That doesn't make me a racist. I could say something racist again and not even know it, that doesn't make me a racist, it likely makes me incredibly uneducated in regards to the topic. I am. I just know immediately when I read something like that cause it makes me feel horrible.

I aint afraid to say anything to you guys....I will say seriously what ever I want to say to you guys. I have no interest in keeping the peace. All I said was, you guys have been saying racist crap on this site for decades and I am the smug son of bitch that complains about it EVERY time.

 

[RobHowe]