Everyone is under the assumption that we are a "young team". Lets look at it.

[Adam]

But you are in essence killing your argument in the same breath in this post.

Recruiting rankings go out the door as soon as you step foot on campus. That’s why Illinois has been garbage.

So you want to say this is the most talented Iowa team you’ve seen in a while because of recruiting rankings, but the same core group of players tied for the worst conference season in school history last year? It doesn’t add up.

Talent doesn't automatically equal wins. Not every dream team is the best. Sometimes an abundance of talent works in the opposite direction. Not saying that's the case either way for Iowa, just pointing out the counter to the statement that a losing team by deduction must be devoid of talent.

 

[WinOneThisCentury]

So, as the years go by, we have the potential to go from young to old? Correct? And is anyone arguing that we haven't aged? Well, Fran is making progress then.

We have also learned through this exercise that bad defense does not reverse the aging process. This can now be considered a fact because if there was any year in college basketball to prove or disprove this theory...it was last year in Iowa Basketball.

 

[N8theGr8]

This roster is not very talented, when you compare it to other BIG teams. It's just not. Lots of role players that are below average in athleticism.

Here's my analysis, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts:

Exceptional: Cook
Above average: Dailey, Nunge, Wieskamp?
Average: Moss, Baer, Pemsl, Connor? Fredrick?
Below average: Bohannon, Garza, Kriener

 

[InGoodCo]

@InGoodCo

When Marble was a senior White averaged nearly 13/7 on over 60% FG from the floor...

When White was a senior JU averaged over 12 on 37% from 3...

When JU was a senior Jok averaged over 17 PPG in conference play...

So now that we are past that “hot take” let’s move on. Yes Cook will probably be 2nd team all conference this year and Garza will get there eventually.

Garza will continue to improve some but he is fairly close to his basketball ceiling. I said the same about Pemsl when everyone was thinking he’d be even better as a sophomore “injury free”. Now don’t get me wrong I like Garza an he will be a solid player for us moving forward, but there just isn’t a whole lot of room to grow.

That’s my analysis of the roster as it stands. You might disagree. I’m as excited as anyone to watch the season, but I in no way shape or form think this is the most talented team we’ve had in the Fran era.

Exactly - you are kind of proving my point and I appreciate it. White, Uthoff and Jok were good players, but they weren't B1G first team caliber until late in their careers. They flashed, much like the players we're discussing. Garza averaged 12/6 and shot 68% as a freshman center. Cook averaged 15/7 shooting 66% as a sophomore. It's easy to sit back now and say those teams had more "talent" because of how each of their careers ended, but you act like we knew it all along with those guys....kind of what you are trying to say you know all along with Cook, Garza and Joe etc. I think those 3 have more potential, they are more explosive players with higher ceilings. They came in higher ranked, more developed and with better all around games. They need to work on their defense obviously, but they were 1st and 2nd year players the last 2 years. If you think back to White, JU and Jok's early years, you'll see similar trajectories. And I think you sell Garza wayyyyy short. He's still growing into his body. He got better as the season rolled on and you saw him make strides. Is he limited athletically? Sure, but if you think he's reached his peak we're in disagreement, the sky's the limit for a kid with his kind of skills as far as developing and having more of a game. He's going to prove you wrong.

 

[lightning1]

Here's my analysis, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts:

Exceptional: Cook
Above average: Dailey, Nunge, Wieskamp?
Average: Moss, Baer, Pemsl, Connor? Fredrick?
Below average: Bohannon, Garza, Kriener

Are you asking about athleticism vs other BIG teams? Or are you talking talent vs other BIG teams?

 

[NikeHawk21]

Exactly - you are kind of proving my point and I appreciate it. White, Uthoff and Jok were good players, but they weren't B1G first team caliber until late in their careers. They flashed, much like the players we're discussing. Garza averaged 12/6 and shot 68% as a freshman center. Cook averaged 15/7 shooting 66% as a sophomore. It's easy to sit back now and say those teams had more "talent" because of how each of their careers ended, but you act like we knew it all along with those guys....kind of what you are trying to say you know all along with Cook, Garza and Joe etc. I think those 3 have more potential, they are more explosive players with higher ceilings. They came in higher ranked, more developed and with better all around games. They need to work on their defense obviously, but they were 1st and 2nd year players the last 2 years. If you think back to White, JU and Jok's early years, you'll see similar trajectories. And I think you sell Garza wayyyyy short. He's still growing into his body. He got better as the season rolled on and you saw him make strides. Is he limited athletically? Sure, but if you think he's reached his peak we're in disagreement, the sky's the limit for a kid with his kind of skills as far as developing and having more of a game. He's going to prove you wrong.

Haha. You literally said nobody knew who Aaron White was as a junior, you also said nobody expected Jok to lead the B1G in scoring when at 17ppg as a junior he was probably a top 5 scorer in the league and most likely the top or one of the top returning scorers the next year... those were dumb statements.

I like Cook, Garza, and Weiskamp. I think all will be all conference at some point maybe not 1st team. I maintain what I said about Garza, I think you misinterpreted that. He will continue to improve each year, but I do think he’s closer to his basketball ceiling than other guys, meaning it’s going to be hard for him to make the types of drastic improvements other guys make. That doesn’t mean he isn’t already a solid player, he is. He will have a great career for Iowa.

But go through my analysis of the roster, tell me where I’m missing the boat. I think this roster is B- / C+ level. Based on what I’ve seen and assuming guys make improvements going into this year. Last years record, preseason coaches and media polls would tend to agree with my take, your take is that of a known Iowa Kool-Aid drinker.

 

[N8theGr8]

Are you asking about athleticism vs other BIG teams? Or are you talking talent vs other BIG teams?

Specifically athleticism. It seems like other teams have valued athleticism at the guard spots more than we have. And there's no doubt that having more athletic guards can help you have a better defense by more effectively cutting off drives and playing in your face (like the days of Gessel and Clemmons). But I don't have any objective evidence to point to on this front. Just a general feeling.

 

[PCHawk]

Here's my analysis, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts:

Exceptional: Cook
Above average: Dailey, Nunge, Wieskamp?
Average: Moss, Baer, Pemsl, Connor? Fredrick?
Below average: Bohannon, Garza, Kriener

Wieskamp is probably closer to exceptional than above average as far as athleticism goes.

 

[lightning1]

Here's my analysis, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts:

Exceptional: Cook
Above average: Dailey, Nunge, Wieskamp?
Average: Moss, Baer, Pemsl, Connor? Fredrick?
Below average: Bohannon, Garza, Kriener

Your list is pretty close. The only ones that I would put above average in basketball athleticism is Cook, JW, Dailey, Maybe Moss. I'm willing to give Nunge a pass right now because he grew a few inches and put on some weight between his commitment date and his first season. Big, long kids take a little more time to get their legs under them when they are still growing. He could really surprise. The rest are average to below average D-1 athletes. IMO.

 

[lightning1]

Specifically athleticism. It seems like other teams have valued athleticism at the guard spots more than we have. And there's no doubt that having more athletic guards can help you have a better defense by more effectively cutting off drives and playing in your face (like the days of Gessel and Clemmons). But I don't have any objective evidence to point to on this front. Just a general feeling.

What you are describing is lateral quickness. The only part of basketball that helps develop the muscles needed for lateral quickness, is playing defense. You aren't going to get much work in this area by shooting, dunking, passing or dribbling. Some players are born with lateral quickness. Most have to develop it over a long period of time. Clemons and Gesell both had good lateral quickness. Both were above average athletes. Both made the effort to play defense.

 

[Adam]

What you are describing is lateral quickness. The only part of basketball that helps develop the muscles needed for lateral quickness, is playing defense. You aren't going to get much work in this area by shooting, dunking, passing or dribbling. Some players are born with lateral quickness. Most have to develop it over a long period of time. Clemons and Gesell both had good lateral quickness. Both were above average athletes. Both made the effort to play defense.

From coaching youth basketball I would imagine that you have made the observation that short kids are more apt to possess lateral quickness. Also short kids are slightly more inclined to give effort on defense. The shorter they are usually the more pesky defender they are. Just a generality I have noted throughout the years.

Therefore when you recruit 6'2 and above guards there is always a strong possibility that you are compromising quicks for scoring ability. Fran does this a little too much we have started to notice. To top it off the shorty that he recruited last (Jbo) just happens to buck the trend I mentioned above.

Fran needs to recruit guards of different skill sets to balance out his depth. You can't have nothing but 6'3 + guards. When you do target smaller quicker kids you should probably not be looking for scorers, but quick drive and distributors and defensive minded players.

 

[Adam]

Wieskamp is probably closer to exceptional than above average as far as athleticism goes.

I want to see him run some minutes against D1 competition before I take the full leap, but I'm leaning strongly towards exceptional as well.

 

[lightning1]

From coaching youth basketball I would imagine that you have made the observation that short kids are more apt to possess lateral quickness. Also short kids are slightly more inclined to give effort on defense. The shorter they are usually the more pesky defender they are. Just a generality I have noted throughout the years.

Therefore when you recruit 6'2 and above guards there is always a strong possibility that you are compromising quicks for scoring ability. Fran does this a little too much we have started to notice. To top it off the shorty that he recruited last (Jbo) just happens to buck the trend I mentioned above.

Fran needs to recruit guards of different skill sets to balance out his depth. You can't have nothing but 6'3 + guards. When you do target smaller quicker kids you should probably not be looking for scorers, but quick drive and distributors and defensive minded players.

Fran needs to recruit dogs in the back court. Pitbulls. Not poodles.

 

[Northside Hawk]

From coaching youth basketball I would imagine that you have made the observation that short kids are more apt to possess lateral quickness. Also short kids are slightly more inclined to give effort on defense. The shorter they are usually the more pesky defender they are. Just a generality I have noted throughout the years.

Therefore when you recruit 6'2 and above guards there is always a strong possibility that you are compromising quicks for scoring ability. Fran does this a little too much we have started to notice. To top it off the shorty that he recruited last (Jbo) just happens to buck the trend I mentioned above.

Fran needs to recruit guards of different skill sets to balance out his depth. You can't have nothing but 6'3 + guards. When you do target smaller quicker kids you should probably not be looking for scorers, but quick drive and distributors and defensive minded players.

Lou Henson always favored big, physical guards. In the first half of the eighties he had Derek Harper, Craig Tucker, Perry Range, and Bruce Douglas. All in the 6'3"-6'4" range and athletic as hell.

His next wave of guards was even bigger. Doug Altenberger was 6'4", Kendall Gill was 6'5", and Stephen Bardo was 6'6". Gill and Bardo were even more athletic than Harper and company. Add the front court talent they had and it's crazy that they didn't win multiple national championships. It's a tribute to how tough the Big Ten was in the eighties and how suspect Henson was as an in game coach.

It think athletic kids are more apt to possess lateral quickness. If they're athletic, size isn't an issue.

 

[PCHawk]

I want to see him run some minutes against D1 competition before I take the full leap, but I'm leaning strongly towards exceptional as well.

His athleticism is there to see plain as day. It doesn't take good competition to recognize that.

 

[InGoodCo]

Haha. You literally said nobody knew who Aaron White was as a junior, you also said nobody expected Jok to lead the B1G in scoring when at 17ppg as a junior he was probably a top 5 scorer in the league and most likely the top or one of the top returning scorers the next year... those were dumb statements.

I like Cook, Garza, and Weiskamp. I think all will be all conference at some point maybe not 1st team. I maintain what I said about Garza, I think you misinterpreted that. He will continue to improve each year, but I do think he’s closer to his basketball ceiling than other guys, meaning it’s going to be hard for him to make the types of drastic improvements other guys make. That doesn’t mean he isn’t already a solid player, he is. He will have a great career for Iowa.

But go through my analysis of the roster, tell me where I’m missing the boat. I think this roster is B- / C+ level. Based on what I’ve seen and assuming guys make improvements going into this year. Last years record, preseason coaches and media polls would tend to agree with my take, your take is that of a known Iowa Kool-Aid drinker.

MAN you got me there..ZING? You are trying to tell me that you would have graded White coming off his sophomore season above Cook coming off his sophomore season? You're retrospective glasses are thick. Would you have rated Woody coming off his freshman season higher than Garza? I doubt it. Jok was pre-season All B1G 3rd team, I'll give you him, but he still had a lot to prove to be 1st team the next season. Are you saying you'd grade any Iowa recruit over the Fran era higher than Joe Wieskamp? I doubt it.
I've got no problem with how you ranked the roster. I don't think you've made any "dumb" statements cause I can have a civil conversation with another dude without trying to tear them down in the process. Just because I am positive, doesn't make me a "known Iowa Kool-Aid drinker". Do I love Iowa athletics? Yes, I do I am a fan. A passionate one at that. I would hope if you spend your days on this board, you are too. But I can call a spade a spade. Iowa was terrible last season, the pre-season diagnostic for this year doesn't appear better. I expect a big turn around. IMO, the pieces are all there and all potentially peak upgrades at the 3,4 and 5 spot in the Fran era. My biggest questions is the 1 and 2, where I don't think we are as good as we have been, but we do have some experience returning. Have they all reached their potential by their 1st or 2nd seasons? No, but either did Marble, Jok, White or Uthoff. All I've said. You can try and spin my words any way you'd like but I'm right on that and you can call me whatever you'd like to help get your point across if it makes you feel better.

 

[N8theGr8]

Wieskamp is probably closer to exceptional than above average as far as athleticism goes.

I would like to think so as well, but I'm being conservative until we see how he stacks up against conference foes. Don't have any stats on his vertical or speed or even PTL highlights to go off of otherwise.

 

[N8theGr8]

Fran needs to recruit guards of different skill sets to balance out his depth. You can't have nothing but 6'3 + guards. When you do target smaller quicker kids you should probably not be looking for scorers, but quick drive and distributors and defensive minded players.

Part of why Toussaint is a solid pickup.

Fran needs to recruit dogs in the back court. Pitbulls. Not poodles.

"He’s a bulldog of a guard," Lods said. "He can shoot the ball. He’s got terrific handle. You can’t stay in front of him. He’s so tough. When big guys are coming down the lane, he steps in and takes a charge. He’s got so much heart. He's just such a winning player. He makes the extra pass. He’s a quiet kid. He’s just a worker. There’s never any BS in him. He has a goal, and he’s trying to get there."

Bulldog is a step in the right direction, eh?

 

[NikeHawk21]

When Marble was a Senior, no one knew who Aaron White was or how good he'd be?

When Uthoff was a senior, no one knew Jok was going to lead the B1G in scoring the next season.

You are trying to tell me that you would have graded White coming off his sophomore season above Cook coming off his sophomore season? You're retrospective glasses are thick. Jok was pre-season All B1G 3rd team, I'll give you him, but he still had a lot to prove to be 1st team the next season. You can try and spin my words any way you'd like but I'm right on that and you can call me whatever you'd like to help get your point across if it makes you feel better.

Somebody is spinning words and it ain’t me.

You said nobody knew who White was as a junior, now you’re saying nobody knows who he was as after his sophomore year. (Btw White averaged nearly 13/6 as a sophomore anyway)

You said nobody knew Jok was going to lead the B1G in scoring as a senior but now you’ve moved the goal posts to 1st All B1G being a big jump.

Meanwhile we probably aren’t that far off. I’m excited for the season and thing we can be improved, I’m just skeptical on how much.

Lastly, I’ll ask you again, why do you seek pity on a message board? We’ve had a discussion, we don’t agree but I don’t think I’ve been a jerk by any means. Even if I was who cares it is a message board, some people do that behind their computer screen. I’ve seen seen you do this so many times when you debate with someone on here. You want people to feel sorry for you because some big bad meany is picking on you? You need to get some thicker skin.

 

[Adam]

His athleticism is there to see plain as day. It doesn't take good competition to recognize that.

Athleticism sure, but is it exceptional? I just can't say that yet without him touching a D1 court.

I am as high on Weiskamp as any recruit in my lifetime, but I just can't be sure about anything when it relates to Iowa basketball.