Everyone is under the assumption that we are a "young team". Lets look at it.

[Adam]

Part of why Toussaint is a solid pickup.

I agree. Toussaint was a solid addition. He is the exact mold of what I would like to see for our back court depth. I hope that it is a sign that Fran has self scouted his lack of recruiting quick, strong, and defensive minded kids to play in the back court.

 

[InGoodCo]

Somebody is spinning words and it ain’t me.

You said nobody knew who White was as a junior, now you’re saying nobody knows who he was as after his sophomore year. (Btw White averaged nearly 13/6 as a sophomore anyway)

You said nobody knew Jok was going to lead the B1G in scoring as a senior but now you’ve moved the goal posts to 1st All B1G being a big jump.

Meanwhile we probably aren’t that far off. I’m excited for the season and thing we can be improved, I’m just skeptical on how much.

Lastly, I’ll ask you again, why do you seek pity on a message board? We’ve had a discussion, we don’t agree but I don’t think I’ve been a jerk by any means. Even if I was who cares it is a message board, some people do that behind their computer screen. I’ve seen seen you do this so many times when you debate with someone on here. You want people to feel sorry for you because some big bad meany is picking on you? You need to get some thicker skin.

Yah that's it. I am looking for pity. What the hell? What makes you think that? I don't need anyone to feel sorry for me and no one does, I am not sure how you got that out of that? That's me telling you that I don't need to tear down your character or label you as "a known Hawkeye hater or troll", call your statements or opinions dumb to drive my take. Cause I don't. You aren't a big bad meany, just not great at debate. Clearly I misspoke on my original post and I've been comparing Iowa star player potential on this team to other Fran teams. The original argument was me stating that I think with potential, this is as talented of team as Fran and Iowa has had in some time. You said "I'd take the tourney teams"....which is easy to say in retrospective...but my point is, none of those All B1G caliber players on those teams were that until their senior seasons. Guys like Garza, Cook and Joe W haven't been given that opportunity yet. I think the pieces on this one have a higher ceiling and my point is I think Cook is better than White at this point in his career as in coming juniors. I think he has All B1G potential. I think Garza is on a higher trajectory than Woody after their Freshman season. I think Joe W is the highest rated kid Fran has had. I was comparing Whitey to Cook coming into their Jr. seasons, any other comparison in time doesn't make sense. Cook averages more, he's a higher profile player and IMO much further ahead of White as far as perception heading into this season.

 

[InGoodCo]

I also think it's hilarious that you think I need a thicker skin when I am one of the few posters on here that isn't hiding behind an alias. I am a musician, I don't hide and I deal with "haters" every single day. I don't need anyone to feel sorry for me because I'm awesome.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Yah that's it. I am looking for pity. What the hell? What makes you think that? I don't need anyone to feel sorry for me and no one does, I am not sure how you got that out of that? That's me telling you that I don't need to tear down your character or label you as "a known Hawkeye hater or troll", call your statements or opinions dumb to drive my take. Cause I don't. You aren't a big bad meany, just not great at debate. Clearly I misspoke on my original post and I've been comparing Iowa star player potential on this team to other Fran teams. The original argument was me stating that I think with potential, this is as talented of team as Fran and Iowa has had in some time. You said "I'd take the tourney teams"....which is easy to say in retrospective...but my point is, none of those All B1G caliber players on those teams were that until their senior seasons. Guys like Garza, Cook and Joe W haven't been given that opportunity yet. I think the pieces on this one have a higher ceiling and my point is I think Cook is better than White at this point in his career as in coming juniors. I think he has All B1G potential. I think Garza is on a higher trajectory than Woody after their Freshman season. I think Joe W is the highest rated kid Fran has had. I was comparing Whitey to Cook coming into their Jr. seasons, any other comparison in time doesn't make sense. Cook averages more, he's a higher profile player and IMO much further ahead of White as far as perception heading into this season.

I just call it as I see it. I’ve been reading and posting on this board for a few years and every time it seems you get into an argument with someone it ends in this unwarranted attack of you card. Maybe I’m completely wrong on that but that’s what I see.

I actually think your eternal Iowa optimism (sorry for saying Kool-Aid I guess) is a breath of fresh air sometimes, especially last year during the agony of that season.

But at the same time it seems you can talk yourself into anything you want to believe. As you did in the off-season when you were convinced Fran knew we needed additional guards and would pursue a grad transfer. Never happened.

In this instance it seems you are doing the same. Let me ask you this, would you rather:

-Return the core from a NIT championship runner up team who won 25 games while bringing on Jarrod Uthoff (a decent rated recruit) who was entering his 3rd year in college.

Or

Return a core from a team that lost 19 games and brought on a top 50 recruit.

I guess to me actual performance at this level plays more of a factor, than recruiting rankings and stats. We love our stats, but the truth of the matter is it’s a lot easier to go get a bucket when you are down 20. We currently have an uptempo team woth a lot of offensive minded players which leads to a lot of points and assists, and for Garza more opportunity to rebound. Unfortunately it didn’t equal actual success on the floor.

 

[InGoodCo]

I just call it as I see it. I’ve been reading and posting on this board for a few years and every time it seems you get into an argument with someone it ends in this unwarranted attack of you card. Maybe I’m completely wrong on that but that’s what I see.

I actually think your eternal Iowa optimism (sorry for saying Kool-Aid I guess) is a breath of fresh air sometimes, especially last year during the agony of that season.

But at the same time it seems you can talk yourself into anything you want to believe. As you did in the off-season when you were convinced Fran knew we needed additional guards and would pursue a grad transfer. Never happened.

In this instance it seems you are doing the same. Let me ask you this, would you rather:

-Return the core from a NIT championship runner up team who won 25 games while bringing on Jarrod Uthoff (a decent rated recruit) who was entering his 3rd year in college.

Or

Return a core from a team that lost 19 games and brought on a top 50 recruit.

I guess to me actual performance at this level plays more of a factor, than recruiting rankings and stats. We love our stats, but the truth of the matter is it’s a lot easier to go get a bucket when you are down 20. We currently have an uptempo team woth a lot of offensive minded players which leads to a lot of points and assists, and for Garza more opportunity to rebound. Unfortunately it didn’t equal actual success on the floor.

I am not attacking you at all, so I am not sure where you are drawing any kind of warrant for anything? I didn't call your takes dumb? I didn't say you were a "troll" (the opposite of kool-aid drinking insult) in retaliation... to me, that's an unwarranted "attack" when we were just conversing on a topic of which we disagreed on. I can take it tho - I'm not looking for pity or trying to get someone to feel "sorry" for me. If that's how you see it, let me explain why I do it. I call people on it cause it's a weak debating tactic. You can argue with someone with out trying to discredit them right? If not, you need stronger talking points and opinions or that's the reason you're doing it in the first place, to discredit them, not because you have conviction in your stance. I do that ALL the time to Fry. but why ya wanna do me like that? I'm a nice guy.

It's easy to write people off and say... "oh he's troll, his opinion doesn't matter" - or "Well, he's a known sunshine pumper, so everyone take what he says with a grain of salt" ...that's trying to lead the readers and discredit the person you're debating. I get it and I know why people do it, but that doesn't make them more "right". It doesn't strengthen your opinion on this matter at all. Because I thought Fran would and should have gotten a transfer and he didn't - isn't further proof that you were "right" and frankly, it has nothing to do with this conversation other than to try and discredit me ... it didn't happen, Fran didn't do what I hoped for and I have not control over that. But that's something I talked myself into this off season so I can "talk myself into anything".... oh you know me so well Nike. You're the one on attack here, not me. I like you and your stances on here for the most part. We don't agree 100% - but overall, I enjoy your posts very much. You're opinion is good with me.

I would rather have the team that returned the core from the NIT championship game because I have the power of hindsight I guess and the current future looks unsure. IMO - there's a stronger core of talent within the current team that has yet to reach it's potential. That's my opinion, it's not yours, and that's fine.

 

[NikeHawk21]

I am not attacking you at all, so I am not sure where you are drawing any kind of warrant for anything? I didn't call your takes dumb? I didn't say you were a "troll" (the opposite of kool-aid drinking insult) in retaliation... to me, that's an unwarranted "attack" when we were just conversing on a topic of which we disagreed on. I can take it tho - I'm not looking for pity or trying to get someone to feel "sorry" for me. If that's how you see it, let me explain why I do it. I call people on it cause it's a weak debating tactic. You can argue with someone with out trying to discredit them right? If not, you need stronger talking points and opinions or that's the reason you're doing it in the first place, to discredit them, not because you have conviction in your stance. I do that ALL the time to Fry. but why ya wanna do me like that? I'm a nice guy.

It's easy to write people off and say... "oh he's troll, his opinion doesn't matter" - or "Well, he's a known sunshine pumper, so everyone take what he says with a grain of salt" ...that's trying to lead the readers and discredit the person you're debating. I get it and I know why people do it, but that doesn't make them more "right". It doesn't strengthen your opinion on this matter at all. Because I thought Fran would and should have gotten a transfer and he didn't - isn't further proof that you were "right" and frankly, it has nothing to do with this conversation other than to try and discredit me ... it didn't happen, Fran didn't do what I hoped for and I have not control over that. But that's something I talked myself into this off season so I can "talk myself into anything".... oh you know me so well Nike. You're the one on attack here, not me. I like you and your stances on here for the most part. We don't agree 100% - but overall, I enjoy your posts very much. You're opinion is good with me.

I would rather have the team that returned the core from the NIT championship game because I have the power of hindsight I guess and the current future looks unsure. IMO - there's a stronger core of talent within the current team that has yet to reach it's potential. That's my opinion, it's not yours, and that's fine.

I agree we’ve had plenty of good discussion. Sometimes I’m on your end providing a little positivity when the negative crowd is taking over. Sometimes I’m on the other side.

The thing is I read the entirety of the post and if I disagree with something I attempt to back up my argument with facts. In this case when you said nobody knew who Aaron White was a junior I didn’t agree with that and tried to show my disagreement through facts. I found that part of your argument to be flat out wrong.

With that said in general I don’t think we are too far off. Iowa does have some talent and potential, I’m just not so sure they can make as big of a jump from last year as most of us hope they do and they need to do to make the tournament. The season is almost here so we will get to see these guys in action soon enough.

 

[InGoodCo]

I agree we’ve had plenty of good discussion. Sometimes I’m on your end providing a little positivity when the negative crowd is taking over. Sometimes I’m on the other side.

The thing is I read the entirety of the post and if I disagree with something I attempt to back up my argument with facts. In this case when you said nobody knew who Aaron White was a junior I didn’t agree with that and tried to show my disagreement through facts. I found that part of your argument to be flat out wrong.

With that said in general I don’t think we are too far off. Iowa does have some talent and potential, I’m just not so sure they can make as big of a jump from last year as most of us hope they do and they need to do to make the tournament. The season is almost here so we will get to see these guys in action soon enough.

Yeah, I misspoke, I meant that AW wasn’t nearly thought of like Cook was heading into their Jr. season. That’s what I meant and you’re not a mind reader and I was flat out wrong. Jok wasn’t really great until his Jr year, and the fact is, none of our current roster has had that opportunity. I also get your points, you can’t ignore the whole record factor, it’s the #1 stat. I just think Iowa is potentially better at the 3, 4 and 5 spots than thay have been in a long time. 3 4 star guys. Unfortunately the 1 & 2 spots don’t appear to be good enough to off set it. I’m excited to see how it pans out, I’m definitely in the optimistic camp. I just think there’s too many good pieces to not have a bounce back year.

 

[SamBrownlee48]

Nice job OP. You really slayed that strawman.

I wanna try.

EVERYONE IS UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT IOWA FOOTBALL IS A SPREAD OFFENSE! LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.


Iowa actually rarely runs 3wr sets, and their qbs take most of their snaps under center, so Iowa is not actually a spread offense.


NAILED IT!

 

[Adam]

would you rather:

-Return the core from a NIT championship runner up team who won 25 games while bringing on Jarrod Uthoff (a decent rated recruit) who was entering his 3rd year in college.

Or

Return a core from a team that lost 19 games and brought on a top 50 recruit.

Good hypothetical for debate. It was intriguing enough to beckon a response from an observing party.

Honestly I feel almost as good about the talent level for this squad as I did coming into the season referenced. The main difference is the pudding. The current squad has woefully underperformed relative to what I and I think many others believe their potential is. There is no proof that this team will be anything other than underachievers.

So yes I would rather have a returning core of proven winners, but that is not the case. At least roster wise though I don't see any reason why this team couldn't be just as good. There is minimal talent gap between the 2 teams. The gap comes from the major discrepancy of real life wins.

 

[PCHawk]

Good hypothetical for debate. It was intriguing enough to beckon a response from an observing party.

Honestly I feel almost as good about the talent level for this squad as I did coming into the season referenced. The main difference is the pudding. The current squad has woefully underperformed relative to what I and I think many others believe their potential is. There is no proof that this team will be anything other than underachievers.

So yes I would rather have a returning core of proven winners, but that is not the case. At least roster wise though I don't see any reason why this team couldn't be just as good. There is minimal talent gap between the 2 teams. The gap comes from the major discrepancy of real life wins.

I agree that the talent is probably similar. I would even argue that this team has a higher ceiling. I think last year they got derailed early and they never turned it around. A couple other really good teams got derailed in the last quarter of the season and never turned it around. Here's to hoping this team actually makes it through the entire season without getting derailed.

 

[JG10Hawk]

I agree this team has a higher ceiling. Heck they were 10-8 in conference play the year before, before stumbling out of the gates last season. Cook, Bohannon, Moss, Baer, and even Pemsl played a lot of minutes on that team 2 years ago.

 

[NikeHawk21]

I agree this team has a higher ceiling. Heck they were 10-8 in conference play the year before, before stumbling out of the gates last season. Cook, Bohannon, Moss, Baer, and even Pemsl played a lot of minutes on that team 2 years ago.

Probably worth mentioning they had a senior Peter Jok on the team that went 10-8 in conference.

 

[JG10Hawk]

Probably worth mentioning they had a senior Peter Jok on the team that went 10-8 in conference.

True but you can't tell me the same core, minus Jok, that is 2 years older and now includes Garza, Nunge, CMac, & Joe W can't at least have the potential to put up and exceed that kind of record. Not to mention that 2 of the 10 wins also came when Jok was out with an injury (Ohio State & @ Rutgers).

 

[Adam]

I agree that the talent is probably similar. I would even argue that this team has a higher ceiling. I think last year they got derailed early and they never turned it around. A couple other really good teams got derailed in the last quarter of the season and never turned it around. Here's to hoping this team actually makes it through the entire season without getting derailed.

I think it's fair to say that most fans without a complex can acknowledge that the individual by individual talent on the roster could and should equal success. The roster doesn't scream final 4. I know for some fans it is either compete for national championships or you're worthless, but going to the NCAA should be a reasonable goal for this team and if they achieve it I will be satisfied. Not over the moon, but satisfied.

 

[NikeHawk21]

True but you can't tell me the same core, minus Jok, that is 2 years older and now includes Garza, Nunge, CMac, & Joe W can't at least have the potential to put up and exceed that kind of record. Not to mention that 2 of the 10 wins also came when Jok was out with an injury (Ohio State & @ Rutgers).

It’s hard to say. That same core had arguably the worst conference record in school history last year. Was that all because we lost Jok? Probably not, something went wrong with that team last year. Is Joe W and an off-season the solution? Hopefully.

Sure I think this team has the potential to win 11 or 12 games in the league (20 games now). Just have to see it materialize.

 

[Adam]

It’s hard to say. That same core had arguably the worst conference record in school history last year. Was that all because we lost Jok? Probably not, something went wrong with that team last year. Is Joe W and an off-season the solution? Hopefully.

Sure I think this team has the potential to win 11 or 12 games in the league (20 games now). Just have to see it materialize.

I'm actually thinking we should win 13 conference games while making my way uneducated pre season predictions.

 

[JG10Hawk]

It’s hard to say. That same core had arguably the worst conference record in school history last year. Was that all because we lost Jok? Probably not, something went wrong with that team last year. Is Joe W and an off-season the solution? Hopefully.

Sure I think this team has the potential to win 11 or 12 games in the league (20 games now). Just have to see it materialize.

So we agree then, the potential is there. I'd say the ceiling is a bit higher than that though. I think they are capable of 13-14 wins if things bounce their way. That would be similar to the 12-6 they finished with a couple of times during the MG, Sapp, Woody, & Uthoff era. With that said, they are also capable of performing well below that and ending up under .500. My guess is they will end up somewhere in between in the 10-12 win range. I just don't see another well under .500 season happening. If it does Fran's seat will be pretty warm.

 

[lightning1]

I think it's fair to say that most fans without a complex can acknowledge that the individual by individual talent on the roster could and should equal success. The roster doesn't scream final 4. I know for some fans it is either compete for national championships or you're worthless, but going to the NCAA should be a reasonable goal for this team and if they achieve it I will be satisfied. Not over the moon, but satisfied.

"Success isn't the same as talent. The world is full of incredibly talented people who never succeed at anything" -Tim Grover

 

[thedukeofearl]

Yah that's it. I am looking for pity. What the hell? What makes you think that? I don't need anyone to feel sorry for me and no one does, I am not sure how you got that out of that? That's me telling you that I don't need to tear down your character or label you as "a known Hawkeye hater or troll", call your statements or opinions dumb to drive my take. Cause I don't. You aren't a big bad meany, just not great at debate. Clearly I misspoke on my original post and I've been comparing Iowa star player potential on this team to other Fran teams. The original argument was me stating that I think with potential, this is as talented of team as Fran and Iowa has had in some time. You said "I'd take the tourney teams"....which is easy to say in retrospective...but my point is, none of those All B1G caliber players on those teams were that until their senior seasons. Guys like Garza, Cook and Joe W haven't been given that opportunity yet. I think the pieces on this one have a higher ceiling and my point is I think Cook is better than White at this point in his career as in coming juniors. I think he has All B1G potential. I think Garza is on a higher trajectory than Woody after their Freshman season. I think Joe W is the highest rated kid Fran has had. I was comparing Whitey to Cook coming into their Jr. seasons, any other comparison in time doesn't make sense. Cook averages more, he's a higher profile player and IMO much further ahead of White as far as perception heading into this season.

This team does have potential. Their freshman year after Uthoff, MikeG and Woody graduated, the cupboard was bare, but the team exceeded all expectations and came within one bad call at Minnesota to making the Dance, play in that is.....

Second year was nasty to watch, but these guys probably have a chip on their shoulders, and want payback for being thugged almost the entire season.....

Going to be an interesting season.....